Episode 57: Claire Linney, Children’s Author
Claire Linney shares how a book about Black British history sparked the idea for her series Time Tub Travellers! Our fun conversation covers topics from self-publishing challenges to marketing strategies on social media. Plus, get tips on how to write children’s books aimed to educate and entertain.
transcript for episode 57 with claire linney
Mary Kole (00:23):
Hello, hello. Welcome Thriving Writers. My name is Mary Kole and with me I have Claire Linney, indie author of Time Tub Travelers. Claire, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Claire Linney (00:36):
So hi, I'm Claire. I live in London. I worked in beauty marketing, in fact, I still do, for sort of over 20 years. And then reading a book on Black British history gave me an earworm and suddenly I decided with a small toddler that I was going to start writing children's books, which was a terrible life decision at the time. But yeah, it's kind of opened up this whole alternative career for me, which has been amazing.
Mary Kole (01:02):
And you have really jumped into it with gusto. You're appearing at several festivals this summer that I noticed on your events page. You do school visits. You have two books out in the series and are working on a third. But you mentioned that you read a book and it kicked off an alternative life path for you. So tell us a little bit about what that book was, what it made you realize, what it made you passionate about, and could you see this outcome coming?
Claire Linney (01:32):
No. So I did a creative writing course, I mean, maybe 16 years ago at the Londons, a really long time ago because everyone reaches that stage of, "Oh, maybe I want to write a book one day." And it was a lovely course, but I didn't really have anything to write about. I was desperately trying to think of things. And I think other people on the course were just like, "Oh no, I just have to write. This is just who I am." So I kind of came out thinking, "Well, this is nice. It's been fun, but I don't think I'm a writer. I don't have this burning urge that I need to write." So I've just sort of parked that for a long time. And then I was on maternity leave with my son who's now six, and I don't know if it was the hormones or the lack of sleep, but I've got the book here actually.
(02:20):
So I can't even remember how I ended up coming across this, so it's a bit blurred, but this is Black Tutors by a wonderful historian called Miranda Kauffman, but it explores the life of six different people of African descent that were living in Britain during tutor times. And I wasn't taught this in school. I had no idea, in fact, that there were Black tutors. I think I had internalized this narrative that Black people were enslaved, and then they arrived with Windrush in 1948 in the UK. So it was quite eye-opening, but I was on maternity leave. I had a baby. I was going back to a job, but it became a bit of an earworm because I started reading more books around Black British history. And I think because my son had just been born, started looking into, "Okay, well, how is he uncovering these stories?" So I started looking into the nonfiction books for children, and there's some great ones, not enough, but there are some amazing ones.
(03:22):
And then I remembered I hated history at school and hated nonfiction books at school, but loved adventure books and Doctor Who. And I was like, "Well, I wouldn't have read these books." It would've been too obvious that someone was trying to teach me something.
(03:36):
So I was like, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if there were fiction books bringing some of these stories to life?" So I went to look for those. I'm literally Googling at two o'clock in the morning while breastfeeding. And I found-
Mary Kole (03:47):
I watched all of Gilmore Girls. I had never watched it. It was a lot less productive than what you ended up doing with your time, but it was just- This was
Claire Linney (03:56):
In between. Island episodes. So I was flitting from one thing to another, but I found maybe five books and I just thought, "Oh, that's not enough." And I think it was suddenly realizing that there's a gap here, something I feel quite strongly about. And then it just became this earworm. And I really tried to ignore it for a really long time. I was like, "You have a job, you have a small child.This is the worst time to decide to write a book." And I remember talking about it with my partner and he was like, "Well, if it's annoying you that much," he was like, "Why don't you just jot some notes down?" So I started making notes on my phone, on odd bits of notebook, started doing a bit of research. And I think initially I was thinking, oh, for maybe five, six year olds, it's going to be a really short chapter book, I'll just put some ideas down, put a framework down.
(04:53):
And I think because initially I was like, "I'm just going to play around with writing a very short 10,000 wordbook for younger authors." And I think once I decided I was doing it, I was like, "Okay, well, I might as well give it a go. " And so I wrote that. And I think because it was only 10,000 words, it felt very achievable.
(05:12):
And then when I got a bit of feedback and they were like, "Actually, for this kind of book, it needs to be longer for a slightly older age group," because a couple of friends were like, "Actually, kids are usually seven, eight years old before they start getting into
Mary Kole (05:27):
History."
Claire Linney (05:27):
So then I was, okay, well, there were things I left out and things I had to simplify. So I was like, "Great, actually, it'll be much better if I can make it 20,000 words." And then it was 30,000 words. And then I realized I'd written a book and then I thought, "Well, actually, I really want this to exist." So I went into the very wonderful waters of querying, which is a soul destroying process. And I think it's difficult because, and someone really capsulated, really summarizes for me really well online the other day, is that agents are not necessarily looking for the best written books. They're looking for the best books that they can sell.
Mary Kole (06:15):
Yes.
Claire Linney (06:16):
And there is a perception, which I've had played back to me by people in the industry that historical fiction isn't terribly popular at the moment, especially in middle grade. It's harder to sell British historical fiction globally, and there's a lack of diversity and an issue when it comes to Black British history. So in terms of picking a commercially viable, easy option, I'm not making life easy for myself. So yeah, the querying, I mean, I was 18 months, but it was so funny. I think I was so determined that this was going to exist in some way, shape or form, which is very unlike me. I have imposter syndrome about things, but for some reason I was so sure that this needed to exist. And I think because it's something that I felt very strongly about, that while I was querying book one, I started writing book two, which at the time, looking back on it, I thought, "Wow, that was very optimistic of me.
(07:17):
"
Mary Kole (07:18):
But I think- We do generally tell people until you know the outcome, why pour into it, but it almost was inevitable for you.
Claire Linney (07:29):
Yeah. And I think also there was a character that I'd then found out about that I'd fall in love with. So I was almost more excited about the period I was going to write. So I was just like, "I'm just going to start writing book too while doing my day job and having a two-year-old. This is all terrible." And I think although I got no feedback from querying at all, I started to give it to friends who had kids the right age and kids are great. They will just tell you what they think. They're not like adults. They're not afraid of hurting your feelings. I mean, especially with an adult note-
Mary Kole (08:00):
I was trying to get scam dessert out of you later if they're your own
Claire Linney (08:06):
Children. Exactly. So I got some really good feedback, but I also gave it to quite a few primary school teachers and they'd given me really good feedback. So because at that point I was like, my writing could be terrible, but I was getting really positive feedback. So I think I got to the point of realizing, okay, well, do I want this to happen or don't I want this to happen? And I was very lucky that a friend of mine who's a traditionally published crime writer has a big network of author friends and she put me in touch with a girl she know that's an indie author who kind of writes YA romanticy and she sat down and spent two hours with me and just said, "This is how it works. This is what I wish I'd known. This is what I recommend. This would be a great next step." And I think I was incredibly fortunate that she took the time just to walk me through, not in every detail, but enough to get me started.
(09:00):
And when I realized that I didn't have to wait for permission, that if I actually wanted to make this happen, I could do it myself,
(09:10):
I was all in. And I think also a lot of people are, which I completely understand, it's the marketing and the promotional side of it that puts them off. That is my day job. So even though I have imposter syndrome about being an author, I don't have an imposter syndrome about selling my books, just writing them weirdly. So actually I thought, well, look, when it comes to marketing and PR, I'm in my comfort zone. So actually if I can get that far, if I can find editors, if I can find an illustrator, and I think that was then the hardest part because I really wanted the book to be as good as it and as professional as it could be as well. I wanted it to have the polish. I wanted people to not feel like I can tell this is self-published because I think indie authors do get a bad rep because there's such variety
Mary Kole (09:57):
And
Claire Linney (09:57):
There's great stuff, but also there's stuff that isn't so great just because it hasn't gone through the rigor that a lot of books go through. So yeah, and then five years later, I've got two books out. So that's pretty much how it happened.
Mary Kole (10:13):
So you saw a quality standard that you wanted to live up to and you sort of imposed that rigor, like you said, because nobody was handing it to you. It was maybe a more niche topic. And even though we all desperately want more representation, that still can be something that makes it seem marginal, which I hate. So you decided to stop waiting for permission, which I think is really, I think, one of the most wonderful things that can happen in somebody who is destined to self-publish. They realize that the way that they have been attempting it isn't the only way.
Claire Linney (10:58):
Yeah. And I think it's difficult because I think 10 years ago, I don't think it would've been possible to do it. Maybe even five years ago, it would've been a lot harder. But I think in some ways the barriers to entry are really low. I think you do have to have ... It helps that I'm in my 40s and I have a well-paid career. I had money to pay for editors and illustrators and invest in things upfront. So that really helped. But then I know friends who've done it or other people in the industry who've done it through Kickstarters and crowdfunders as well. So I think there are, and I think there is flexibility. I think the only thing is ... The great thing is you get to do everything and the worst thing about it is you get to do everything, but it's very empowering because you become the key decision maker.
(11:48):
So if it's something you really feel passionately about, that can be very galvanizing because you're not beholden to other people deciding how something needs to happen. You decide, you set the agenda.
Mary Kole (11:59):
But it seems like you talk about having a little bit of imposter syndrome in that regard. And for example, you are comfortable with the marketing, but maybe you're not an art director, right? Maybe the commissioning illustrations was daunting. I mean, how did you grow into that decision maker, kind of tastemaker, rubber stamper role of the self-publishing process?
Claire Linney (12:28):
I think it's definitely been a journey. I think editing was a whole thing. So the first thing that happened is I found an amazing editor who just does middle grade and young adult. Her online presence is the writer and the wolf. And I was so lucky that I found a part ... She has beautiful illustrations on her website and I'm a sucker for good presentation. But she does this huge service where she looks at your manuscript, tells you all the things that are working and aren't working. But also she does this brilliant thing. She asked for all your favorite films
(13:04):
And books, and then uses those to explain her critique. But she also gave me a list of about 30 middle grade books to go and read. And I was already reading books for this audience, but she made me fall in love with middle grade literature, which I think was the best thing that could have happened because I was reading ... I think for about 18 months, I didn't read any adult books. I only read middle grade books. So that was where I was aiming. But I think then ... So she hugely improved things. And then I made the terrible mistake, although it was brilliant now. I gave the manuscript to my partner who doesn't really read. He has a documentary director. He was by trade. He's now a story consultant who works with other documentary directors. I gave him my manuscript to read, honestly, thinking that he would just go, darling, you're so clever.
(13:57):
Well done. I love you even-
(14:00):
It's brilliant. No notes. That was genuinely, and I've known him for 15 years. I should have not expected that, but I genuinely thought that's what would happen. And then three weeks later, he hands me back my entire manuscript printed out, covered in feedback, and I was furious. I mean, I'm amazed our relationship survived. I was livid. I didn't ask for feedback. And he was like, " Well, why did you give it to me if you didn't want feedback? "I sort of said for emotional support and endorsement, not ... So anyway, so I sat with this for a week steaming, fuming, and then I started reading his notes. And when I realized I agreed with 98% of his comments, I sort of had to climb down out of the huff tree.
(14:57):
As another author describes it, you get your feedback and you go and sit in the huff tree and you do what you need to do. And then when you're ready, you climb down and then you could action the feedback. But even though he's not a big reader, he's so good on story and the order in which things happen and where you're creating great energy with action and then you get bogged down by exposition or pacing, just things like that and understanding why your characters are doing things and whether it makes sense and whether you are invested, he's so good at that. So he sort of became my structural editor without me intending for that to happen, but it's quite hard getting feedback from someone you're that close to.
Mary Kole (15:41):
So
Claire Linney (15:41):
That was a big thing for me to navigate. And also coming down from a day of work and seeing your manuscript being edited in real time at the dining room table isn't something most writers have to witness. Why are you writing so many notes on chapter four? Yeah.
Mary Kole (16:02):
Allow me the pink cloud as they call it. I'm not ready for reality just yet. I thought that was a good session.
Claire Linney (16:10):
Yeah. So I think for any writer, regardless of what your journey is, I think editing is hard because it is unpicking what you've worked really hard on. And my partner killed off one of my characters before dinner and he said," this character needs to go. You just need to get rid of them. "And I was like, " But I really like this character that he's not adding anything, Claire.
(16:38):
"Yeah, I think it's like going through different processes of grief. I think it's something you have to get used to. And also because it's hard not to let it knock your confidence when you realize there's so much work to be done at the point you think you've done a great job and you think you've finished. And I think however good your own critical eye is when you self-edit, you have to get someone else to look at it because you start to become blind to things, especially if you're attached to them. And there's bits that I get really emotionally attached to. And there was stuff that my first editor had told me, had recommended that I switch up and I hadn't. And then my partner told me, I was like, " Okay, that's two now. "And I'd sort of fixed it and hadn't completed to do at the beginning of the first book and I hadn't completely fixed it.
(17:29):
And then I gave my manuscript to, I had 15 beater readers that were from a local school that I'm a governor at and they told me that the beginning was a problem. And at that point I was like, " Yeah, I need to rewrite the beginning.
Mary Kole (17:44):
"Isn't it amazing how writers, we can have this vision and our standards are so high, which is what makes it painful when we don't quite live up to the standards, but we still like to get away with stuff.
Claire Linney (17:58):
Yeah. Yeah. I think also it's sometimes there are little things you're like, " Oh, I can tweet that and I can tweet that. "But sometimes things are more fundamental in terms of like you haven't laid enough breadcrumbs for something that happens later. And the more you realize you have to unpick to get the ... That's when it becomes painful. It's those things where you realize that there's unraveling up and downstream. I think those are things you can become most resistant to because you kind of want to fix it in the easiest way, not in the best way, even though-
Mary Kole (18:32):
Before the whole script falls apart, if you pull on this string, who knows what'll happen?
Claire Linney (18:38):
Yeah. And I think it's something I ... And I think also because the first book started with 10,000 words and then it was 20,000 words and then it was grew ... I didn't plan it out to be 30,000 words. So there was a lot of restructuring and finessing to get that flow to work through the whole book. I think with the second one, in some ways it was slightly easier because I went into it knowing how long I wanted it to be. And I learned so much from writing the first one. So there was just so much in the second one, and I still had to do a lot of editing, but there was a lot of things that were just, especially in the terms of the inner journey of the protagonist and what they wanted and how they drove the story that were just baked into the second one from the start.
(19:28):
And there's so much I learned on the second one that I'm now putting in place when I'm planning the third. So actually that's a really lovely thing because you only realize, I think, how much you learn during the process in a way when you start to do it again.
Mary Kole (19:42):
Yeah. I have some questions that are specific to the craft of historical and historical series, right? So follow me for a second down this rabbit hole. I am wondering, because in fiction, the advice that I like to give is, well, you can just change it. You're making it all up. But in memoir and historical fiction, you actually have some parameters that you are functioning within that are dictated by ... In memoir, it's what really happened in your life story. In history, it's what really happened. Were those constraints intimidating for you? Were they liberating for you? There was less to kind of pick through. Did you find yourself bogged down with research and maybe finding it more difficult to kill some of those darlings that you found at the research, right? That tends to happen when we have source material. So talk me through how the historical record influenced your storytelling.
Claire Linney (20:53):
Yeah, it was a weird one. I sort of told myself a lie so that I didn't have to think I was writing historical fiction. I told myself I was writing time travel sci-fi, which so my books are about the kids travel from East London in 2024 and they travel back to Tudor Times and Victorian Times. And I think that was purely to give myself permission to write historical fiction, not being a historian. So that's the lie I needed to tell myself. And I also hated history at school. So the research was ... It was really interesting. I think, and actually I talk about this when I go into schools because I think when people talk about world building, they usually talk about it in the context of fantasy. You need to create this fantasy world.
(21:39):
And actually, I think what you do in historical fiction is world building, but within the constraints of the time period that you've settled. And I think in some ways it's helpful. So I kind of think of it as constrained creativity, and I sometimes think that's useful because there are rules and there are parameters and you are working with things that already exist. So it becomes about how you can play with that and what are ... Rather than just having to create everything from scratch. So in some ways it's easier, but in some ways it's harder because you then have to check a lot of stuff. So I think, I mean, the amount of stuff I Googled about Victoria in London got ridiculous. So I read a lot of books on the Victorian circus because my second one set there and the research, I found loads of things that were brilliant because I'm looking for things that are going to engage children.
(22:37):
So in Tudor London, it was the fact that life jackets were made out of pigs bladders on the boats that used to cross the Thames. I can't remember which book I found. I think there was a book called The Time Travelers Guide to Renaissance Britain, which was my Bible.
Mary Kole (22:52):
Fantastic.
Claire Linney (22:53):
So I couldn't have come up with that, but that was a real ... And I was like, well, that's great. That's going in there. And the fact that Tudor London smelled so bad or the fact that ... I read a book on the Victorian Circus. The youngest ever Lion Tamer was a 16-year-old girl who put her head in the mouth of a lie, and she was called Ellen Chapman. And she very sensibly only did Lion Taming for 18 months and then quit before she died, unlike a lot of Lion Tamers who didn't.
Mary Kole (23:20):
Already fantastic.
Claire Linney (23:23):
So I think that one of the joys of writing historical fiction is sometimes the research, and you have to do a lot of it. It's almost like you have to do the whole iceberg to find the tip, which is the stuff you want to be in the book, and so that you have enough that you feel confident in the world
(23:42):
Because I think that the danger is you also can get too hung up on things. So I think at one point my partner with editing was like, I think you're letting reality stop the story from being what it needs to be. And there's a balance because there's an element of these are kids, reading books set in Tudor or Victorian Times. If I mention certain things, I want those to be true. If they're eating kippers for breakfast, I want there to have been kippers. If I'm talking about omnibuses as transport, I want there to have been on ... It's elements like that, but there are other things that you can play with. And I think it's finding for your book, what are the things that you want to hold, what you want to keep really faithful, and what are the things that you feel comfortable that you have licensed to play with because they work for the story and they're not unfaithful to the period you're in.
(24:38):
And I think that I had to find my way with that. And I imagine it might be slightly different for every author, depending on what they're writing and why.
Mary Kole (24:49):
Exactly. I think everybody has a different rubric. Some people, just from an ethical standpoint, they cannot budge on anything and their journey might be a little different, but you have also given yourself the fantasy sci-fi excuse, let's call it, because there is the expectation from readers that maybe something will happen like a bathtub time machine, right? Maybe unexpected will happen. So our relationship with reality and fact and truth is maybe more in the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
Claire Linney (25:29):
Exactly. I think my one tenant was, I think the black British ... So there's a black British historical figure that is very prominent and that stuff I wanted to be really ... As much information as that I could find, I wanted to keep that as close to fact as possible. But I also put a bit of an afterward, which kind of talks through all the facts and the life and what was real and what wasn't as well. So there's a little bit of the fact that I ... Actually, no, I think the ... No, I even used the same children's name in it. So if there's anything that I feel that was a little bit stretching, I will write that in the afterward at the end so the kids are really clear on what was based on real fact.
Mary Kole (26:15):
Oh, I really like that. That's a wonderful resource to kind of add texture and richness. Let's go to the fantasy and sci-fi world building. Time travel is a mental problem for me whenever I read it or heaven forbid, try to think of an idea that involves time travel. There are all of these schools of thought. There are all of these rules. Can you blink yourself out of existence in the current ... If a butterfly flaps its wings when you're in the past, all that kind of stuff. So how did you handle the complexities of time travel in that world building?
Claire Linney (26:57):
Well, I think I have a very detailed backstory as to how my time traveling bathtub came to be, what it's doing, and how it works. None of that is in the books, but I feel like I needed to know what it was, so I was comfortable treating time traveling the way. And I think also for kids, there's an element, unlike adults who are much more questioning of being like, yeah, but how does the time travel work? Kids will accept a lot more things at face value as long as you stay playing within the rules that you set for yourself. They just don't stress about it as much. They're like, of course you've got a time traveling bathtub. Why wouldn't it be?
(27:38):
Having said that, I have learned that I needed to brush up on my quantum physics because there will invariably be usually an 11-year-old child in a school that will want to get into the physics of time travel. And I have got into some quite detailed discussion of the theoretical possibilities of time travel and the physics underpinning it whilst doing school visits. So there will always be one kid that wants to unpack it. So that is sort of what I needed. But I think I decided that the bathtub is ... Basically, my main character, Zula, her aunt owns an antique shop. There's this gold antique bathtub. She tells the kids not to mess around with it, so of course they mess around with it. It's shiny, it's gold, and they've been told not to go near it. The bathtub, essentially, I've decided has an ulterior motive that it wants to illuminate stories from Black British history, and it's using Zula and her friend Milo as a way of doing this.
(28:41):
And the idea is that certain people's timelines might be under threat in the past, so it's kind of co-opting them to send them back in the past and keep them on track. So in my head, the past has always existed and they're kind of going back to play the role that's already been predetermined, but none of that comes through in the books. The kids don't need to worry about it. I guess that's how I rationalized it in my head. And then that helps ... It just makes me feel comfortable with, okay, so I know what the rules are. This is how we go forward.
Mary Kole (29:14):
And how do you balance ... So one thing that I love that you said was, I think it was when you were talking about feedback, it was how your main character is proactive throughout the story. But if you're going back into the past, you are under the whims of the time traveling bathtub because it has an agenda. It has a ... Yes. It has an agenda. You are within the constraints of history and your goal is maybe not to have your own adventure, but to keep history on track and to be a vessel for knowledge, and those can read as passive, right? So you are very much attuned And to keeping your protagonist proactive, but how do we do it without making them seem like she's just a vessel to be filled with knowledge for the purpose of education, right? How do you navigate that?
Claire Linney (30:15):
Yeah. I wish I'd read a few more books on maybe the craft before I started writing. I kind of did it after writing the first book and was like, "Oh, now I understand why that was a problem in the editing." But there's a great book called Story Genius, which I love that I found really helpful. So I think it was trying to start the story from not what I wanted to convey, but what my protagonist needs to. And actually, my first editor is great for that. She has these little worksheets and she's like, "What does your protagonist want? Where are they at the start of the story? What happens to catalyze them?" And for Zula, basically she's done this amazing history project with this amazing drawing of a tutor family and she gets a terrible mark for it, which she's not used to. And when she goes to her history teacher and says, "Well, why did you mark me down?" Her history teacher was like, "We've been talking about the importance of historical accuracy and you drew a black family and there wouldn't have been any black families that looked like you in Tudor London." So she's confused and frustrated and she's got a terrible mark for her history project and she goes to see her art and events.
(31:28):
And her aunt was like, "Your teacher is talking rubbish. There were black tutors." So Zula's like, "How did I not know about this? " But then it's frustrated that there's not more information. So then when the bathtub takes her and her friend back, she suddenly has this opportunity to meet a real black tutor and rewrite her history product and project and prove her teacher wrong. But it's all about ... And then basically she ends up encountering a girl, something gets stolen and they end up having to solve it. So I try and make sure that all the things that are happening are being driven by the protagonists trying to get what they want. And sometimes it doesn't happen the first time around, and that's why a lot of things shifted in the edit. And for example, her motivation wasn't clear enough when I first wrote the book at the beginning.
(32:18):
So I think it's trying to, because I think you can get very caught up in, "Oh, well, I'm in Tudor London and there's a silk thief and a black silk weaver, and that's what the book's about. " And actually remembering that, no, actually it's about Zula needing to prove her history teacher wrong is actually what the book's about and why that's important to her. So I think it's something I have learned to get better at and it's something I definitely didn't nail out of the gate.
(32:47):
But I think that's one of the things that I think you develop as a writer. And I think also the amount I read has hugely helped. I read a ridiculous amount I always have done, but I think reading so much middle grade and really understanding and being a bit more analytical when you read to say, "Okay, well this is ... " So then how, okay, that's what this character's trying to do and where are they at the beginning and how are they really active and driving things forward? So I think that was interesting. There's also a really, I read a really great book called The Heroin's Journey. I think it's my Gail Kariger, who's an author, but I sort of was aware of the hero's journey. And I realized that the kind of plot structure I have more loosely follows the heroin's journey and that my protagonists, they resolve things working with other people in community rather than being like the lone wolf facing the bad guy at the end.
(33:45):
And I think realizing that actually, yes, your character's driving things, but it's about their ability to work as part of a group and to use other people's strength and that's where they get their support from.That's unlocked quite a few things for me, I think.
Mary Kole (34:02):
That's great. So how are you choosing not only your time periods, the tutor connection, but you also, if I'm not mistaken, have done Victorian, you've done Circus. How are you sort of dictating for yourself where the series goes and how do you keep it from becoming episodic or patterned in a way of the bathtub takes us, we got history, we solve a mystery, we come back full of knowledge. That's a challenge in this type of framework.
Claire Linney (34:43):
Yeah, very much. I think the first one, because the inspiration came from this book, Black Tutors, the first one was always going to be tutors. That was where the idea came from. And there were basically six Black tutors in that book. But the one I was drawn to was this silkweaver called Reasonable Black Women because he had kids, and if you're going to write middle grade, no one wants everyone running ... It needs to be kids having adventures. That's what kids want to read. And because he had kids and because he was kind of just a bloke running a business, he wasn't in a court, he wasn't changing the course of history. And there's something about the ordinariness in some ways of that that really appealed to me. So I think then it was giving Zulu a reason to want to go there and why she would engage.
(35:28):
I think the second one was interesting because I'd read a book called Black Victorians and I discovered Pablo Fanker who was Britain's first Black circus owner. He was a equestrian legend. He was a tightrope walker. He performed for Queen Victoria. He literally started as an orphan in Norridge and then had this incredible life and thousands of people lined the streets of leads on the day of his funeral. And he's very briefly mentioned in a Beatles song called For The Benefit of Mr. Kite, because John Lennon found a circus poster of his. And I do aerial exercise is my ... So Circus is my side hobby other than writing a book and being a parent. So I was like, okay, well, it suck. Oh, this is the Victorian circus. So that was a no-brainer. I was like, book two, Victorian Circus, Pablo Fanke. I think it was then trying to go back to Zulu and be like, "Okay, so why is it interesting for Zula to meet Pablo Fanke?
(36:28):
Why would she be engaged with the Victorian circus?" And I also wanted to, because the books are also about looking at representation and where it doesn't always exist. And I sort of wanted to do horse riding growing up, but girls who did horse riding didn't look like me, and there's not a lot of representation of black girls horse riding. And Pablo Franco was a master of question. So those were the things. So I think it's about finding a hook for Zula, something that would be important to her and something that makes sense for the world, for the reason I'm writing the books and then giving it something that doesn't feel forced. And it took some time to get there. It wasn't like it just sort of ... And so that's the process I've then gone through for the third book and it needs to be something that kind of builds.
(37:20):
So it doesn't just feel like I'm inventing a random new hobby for Zula for every single book. But I think for that reason, I think the third book will be the last one in this series for the time being, partly because I've got other earworms and other ideas that I sort of want to go and explore. But I think it is hard to keep finding that natural growth and continuation for your characters and build. And I don't feel like I've got a natural place to take it to after this book, but I kind of feel like I'm going to leave it in a way in soap operas where they sort of kill a character, but they don't really kill a character.
Mary Kole (37:59):
They could come back.
Claire Linney (38:01):
Yes. It'll be open-ended, but there's definitely a bit of a building to a climax in book three that sort of ups the ante and stops it from being ... So basically the aunt is going to get trapped in time and they have to rescue her. So the third book will feel very different to the first two because of that extra, I think, element. And it gives Zula a little bit more skin in the game as well, because her aunt's in danger.
Mary Kole (38:29):
Yeah. So you raised the stakes there, maybe apart so much from the historical exploration piece, and you really kind of bridge the present and the past together.
Claire Linney (38:41):
Yeah. I think also what it's sort of also become is there are certain time periods that are just a kind of no-brainers in terms of ones that kids will be familiar with. So Victorians, because it's Charles Dickens and it's Queen Victoria, kids know where they are a little bit with Victorians. They usually study tutors at some point at school in this country and they do Henry III and how terrible he was to his wives. And so then the third one is Romans because that's again, it's a ... Whereas I could have picked Georgians or Stewarts, but kids very rarely, if you say when was Georgian times, they're like, not entirely ... So it's helpful to anchor it to a time period that they'll kind of be in tune with, but also one that doesn't always have a diverse representation in the way that it's taught.
(39:32):
So that's the sweet spot for me. And there were kind of obvious tempoles to go after on that as well.
Mary Kole (39:39):
So this does bring us to marketing, which is your wheelhouse, but it is also especially key. That's not to say traditionally published writers don't have to market because- Absolutely.
(39:54):
Yeah. Unfortunately, that largely falls onto their shoulders, but especially when it comes to indie and especially in children's books where you have the hurdle that you don't necessarily get to market to your end user to reader themselves, there are on the internet layers, kids are not supposed to be on websites. You are not supposed to be able to be in touch with them directly, right? So there are barriers real or in theory to reaching your audience directly. So was there anything that was really a challenge for you with reaching out to this new demographic that maybe you weren't as well versed in because of your job?
Claire Linney (40:40):
Yeah. So I think having done marketing for as long as I have was hugely helpful. I followed lots of different ... There are loads of people on Instagram and TikTok that will kind of offer tools for authors. And there was one person who did, I think she's called Shelly. She had a lot of great content on YouTube. And on the back of that, it was like $40. I got her crib sheets of stuff for marketing for authors. And some of it was stuff I knew, but it was looking at how I could apply it for book marketing specifically. I think the biggest thing that I did is, I think when people think about marketing in their book, and it's one of the things that frustrates me a lot actually, is you think you're giving people a book for free if you want them to review it or feature it, and you're not giving them a free book, you're asking for four hours of their time.
(41:34):
And if you want four hours of someone's time, you need to have a relationship with them. So I started my Instagram and my TikTok six months before my book came out because I knew it was going to come out. And because I was reading so many books on Black British history and I was reading so many middle grade books, I was like, " Well, look, it makes sense for me to start talking about all the books that I'm reading that link to the book that I'm going to write. "I think I discovered that I love creating content in this process, so that's become a thing in of itself. But I made a real effort with children's bookstagrammers to follow them, to interact in a meaningful way with their posts rather than just liking or putting emojis. And also with authors, when I was featuring their books and tagging them, so by the time my book came out, I kind of had all my favorite authors following me.
(42:29):
I was in DM chats with a couple of them. I'd got into a couple of middle grade book clubs with other bookstagramers, so I wasn't a stranger to anyone. So when I approached people and said," Actually, I've got my own book coming out. This is what it's about. I'd love to send you a copy. "Pretty much everyone said yes. And I even got some authors to read it and give me endorsements, which is really hard to do for an indie author. But I think people knew who I was and they knew what I was trying to do in terms of representation and literature, but I worked really hard at that. I didn't just turn up. So I try never to just approach people cold. I kind of Instagram stalk people, if I'm honest, but I try in the best way possible though. In the best way possible.
(43:17):
But I try and set up a genuine relationship with them so that they understand who I am before I ask them for something because that's kind of how PR works. And I think because people really responded to how enthusiastic I was about children's literature and diverse representation and Black British history, it made sense when I then went, oh, and this is my book, which is tapping into all these things. But I think it's also, it's coming up with just different ways to talk about it as well, because I think people are very focused on what they want to tell other people about their book. And actually you need to be entertaining people or educating them or hooking them like people aren't waiting for your content. And I think even things like, I see a lot of authors do this thing where they pause for about three seconds before they start talking or they start a video by introducing themselves and people have swiped on by then.
(44:18):
You have to start immediately with a hook and a reason for them to pause. So I think it's things like that that I understand intrinsically and marketing have helped, but I think it's trying to get to parents and also kind of frame my content around what are parents worried about with kids not reading for pleasure or their kids not reading stuff they think are educational. And having some content that's more aimed at teachers, most of the school visits I get is because the teachers follow me on Instagram and get their heads of English to book me for a school visit. That's how I get most of my author visits.
(44:56):
And that's a really big way of marketing as well because you do get to talk straight to the kids and kids are great at pestering their parents if they really want something or going to the library and saying, This is the book I want. So yeah, it's been a lot of building, I'd say it's been more about building relationships and using social media as a way of doing that. And I'm lucky that I guess I like talking. I feel very comfortable in front of a video. So I think it's leaning into the strengths I already have. Some people love going and doing events and book fairs in person. I don't have time to travel around and do book fairs and I like doing social media. So I guess I'm leaning into the thing that I enjoy and the thing that I have time and can get to work for me.
(45:45):
But it's a lot of time and energy. I'm not going to say that it isn't. It's taken time to build that to a scale in which it's kind of paying off, but that's pretty much where my sales come from. It's definitely through social media and through getting other people to talk about the books as well.
Mary Kole (46:04):
I do. So we have a question here. How much time do you spend stocking people before reaching out? So I am going to maybe expand that and pivot to, well, it's not just about that initial outreach. I think that the thread here really is that it is a relationship and the initial outreach or the pre-stocking is just one part of it because then you want to be in dialogue with the person, right?
Claire Linney (46:37):
Yeah. So there's no formula for it. I think you kind of have to judge it, I think, a little bit. So I spent six months trying to build up a following on Instagram and before my book came out and reaching out to people, and a lot of it is commenting and engaging with their content, but in a genuine way, because I think it's very easy to just go and like people's posts or just stick emojis on. But when they say, "These are my eight books around this topic, what would you suggest?" And saying, "Oh, I love this book and have you read this book?" And it does take work, but that means that once I have a relationship with someone, because it's kind of also, a lot of English people, we feel really awkward. If you kind of feel like you're Instagram friends with someone and then you refuse to review their book, that's weird and awkward.
(47:33):
But for example, there's a lovely girl called Jo who runs this amazing account called The Little Literary Society. And she's kind of like the mother of children's bookstagramer. She's amazing. She's a teacher. And through someone I knew, they said, "Oh, Jo runs this middle grade book club. Let me ask her if I can add you to the group." And she gets authors to come every month and there's like 15 teachers and bookstagrammers and then we have a Q&A with the author. It's amazing. But it was kind of an introduction to that. So then I got to know her and followed her and she really does not review books by indie authors because she gets so many requests and she made an exception for me and she's become a big supporter of mine, but that was all built on the relationship that I have with her.
Mary Kole (48:17):
Yes.
Claire Linney (48:17):
If I just approached her cold, that never would've happened. So it is a difficult one to judge, but I think you've got to go into it thinking you want to build genuine connections with people because now I have, I mean, I've got, I think I'm on 30,000 followers on Instagram and the same on TikTok. I get so many requests for people wanting me to read their books and I don't know who these people are. I don't know anything about them or their book. And also if I click on their profile, if I can't find what their book is about and who it's aimed at in 30 seconds, I don't have time. And quite often people won't even ... I get a lot of people asking me to support their picture books. I never review picture books. So they haven't even ... So a lot of the time it's even basic things like taking the time to make sure the person you're approaching, do their audience fit with the kind of book you have?
(49:18):
You may want them to because they've got a big following and sometimes it's going to smaller influencers with smaller following because a lot of the big guys just don't have the time because they're getting so many books from publishers.
Mary Kole (49:32):
Yes.
Claire Linney (49:32):
So yeah, you've got to have a plan and commit to it and be prepared to put in some time and work, unfortunately.
Mary Kole (49:42):
Well, the good news is once you have a small community, you have them, right? You do want to maintain those relationships, but starting out with the toughest, the most labor intensive, kind of a time capital intensive, emotional capital intensive, social capital, all of that. Once you build those lists, once you have those relationships, maintenance is less onerous than getting those relationships up and running. Now, I feel like I owe you a marketing consulting fee to answer the following question, but I'm hoping you can. You are very mission-driven, right? You can say Black British history, you can say representation in books and that hints at your audience and hints at the subject matter of your books, is it harder to market or to niche down if your book is a coming of age story of a girl's summer learning about who she is, where there's no nonfiction hook or time period hook or mission driven hook
Claire Linney (50:55):
Like
Mary Kole (50:56):
That?
Claire Linney (50:58):
I think it's about finding your audience. So I think for me, it's been very clear, but then in some ways it's harder because it is perceived as a bit more niche. Whereas actually if you've got something that's a little bit more commercial, in some ways it's easier. I think you have to think of what are the content strands that could relate to. So let's say it's a book about it's coming of age, maybe it's a young adult book and it's all about summer. So maybe things that you do in the summer holidays is a content strand. Maybe other young adult books is a content strand. Maybe coming of age and the teenage experience is a content strand. So it doesn't always have to be books, but it's like, what are the things that you can create content around that relate to your book in some way?
(51:45):
Maybe your character has a particular passion point that if your character loves gardening, maybe you create content around gardening or gardening tips for younger people or something like that. It's about seeing things that are adjacent that kind of makes sense. So if I had a fantasy book, I would go really hard on fantasy and why fantasy reading is really important for kids and how fantasy unlocks imagination. And maybe I would link to films that are great fantasy worlds or television series. So I think it's trying to think a little bit more broadly than just what your book is about, but if someone's interested in reading a coming of age set in summer, maybe it's on a beach, what other things might they be interested in or that could relate to that? So that would be, because that's kind of how brands work. They kind of have content strands that relate to elements of their brand that they can tap into.
(52:41):
So that's how I would think about it.
Mary Kole (52:44):
I love that. That is incredible advice because you don't want to just be talking about, well, my book and my book. Yeah.
Claire Linney (52:54):
And I think also think about if someone's already bought your book and every single post is just ... And I think there's an element of your author life and your author process, which is interesting, but I think, and it's different on different platforms because TikTok is weird and it's like it's a new group of people every time. So you can be a lot more repetitive in some ways on TikTok because you're not nurturing an audience in the same way. Instagram is going a bit more like that, but I think you do have a bit more of a loyal following on Instagram and Facebook and other platforms. So you want to keep your current audience engaged as well as bringing in new ones. And I honestly, the other thing I do is I get a lot of inspiration from other people. It's not doom scrolling if it's author research.
Mary Kole (53:46):
What I'm going to tell, even my son, my oldest son is nine. He'll be like, "Mom, stop doom scrolling." And I'm like, "Okay, first of all, I feel insulted." Second, "How do you know what doom scrolling is? " Now I'm going to be like, "It's marketing research, child of mine."
Claire Linney (54:03):
Yeah. I think also you have to train the algorithm. TikTok especially, I've buttoned down that algorithm. I'm like, "Don't you look at that comedy video, Claire, because you are going to be in a hole and then your four you page is going to go. " But you start to notice trends or just things that you're like, "Oh, well, that's quite fun. How could I put my book in that context?" Because there's always trends going around and it's just seeing what other authors are doing or even actually not even authors because I would say they're not the most ... Traditionally published authors are not the most creative marketers on the planet. I hate to say that there are exceptions.That's a terrible thing to say, but most of them don't ... And I know most of them don't like marketing because I talk to them on Blue Sky.
(54:46):
Most of them hate marketing, but look at other content creators who outside of the book and see how they're engaging with their audience, see what trends they're using because you can get a lot of ideas and inspiration or just what other book talkers and bookstagramers are doing and think, well, how can I take that and make it about my book or things linked to my book? So I don't invent everything. A lot of it is taking what other people have done and then putting my own spin on it or my own interpretation on it.
Mary Kole (55:17):
I think that thinking a little bit more broadly and maybe learning, and it is a learning process, but Lauren at it from a different angle, maybe it is a gardening, to go back to gardening, maybe it is a gardening influencer that does the propaganda I'm not falling for and you really like the way that they did it, which is kind of a current TikTok trend. Maybe you can borrow. But I think what stops a lot of people initially is they feel pressured to reinvent the wheel with-
Claire Linney (55:47):
No, no. Honestly, I've worked in marketing for 20 years. People very rarely reinvent the wheel. Even when it looks like they've reinvented the will, they haven't. And they've just painted it a different color and put it on a different vehicle. There's a hell of a lot less originality than people think. And it's often not the first person that does something. It's like the third person, they just did it best.
Mary Kole (56:12):
Yeah. And that's what takes off. Claire, Linny, you are fantastic. We covered craft. We covered self-publishing hurdles. We covered marketing, just all of it. I have loved every minute. Where can the people find you?
Claire Linney (56:31):
So I am claire_Lini, so C-L-A-I-R-E, and then underscore L-I-N-N-E-Y. So that's my handle on Instagram, or just Google it, on Instagram and TikTok. So that's where I kind of talk about my books, I think maybe 20% of the time, and then 80% of the time it's Blackbush history, other people's books. And I have a website and a newsletter I didn't mention, but yeah, newsletter is very important if you're an author, so those are my main channels.
Mary Kole (57:03):
Fantastic. Claire Linney, author of- I'm Tova Travelers. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing so much of your wisdom and your wonderful advice and energy. It has been such a pleasure.
Claire Linney (57:20):
No, thank you so much. It's been really lovely. I really appreciate it.
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