Episode 59: Claire Stetzer, Editor
Abrams Children’s editor Claire Stetzer joins us for a podcast conversation about genre-bending, publishing diverse stories, the trope-ification of YA, and more!
TRANSCRIPT FOR EPISODE 59 WITH CLAIRE STETZER
Mary Kole (00:23):
So we are rolling now with Claire Stetzer. And Claire, welcome. Thank you so much for making the time. Why don't you introduce yourself?
Claire Stetzer (00:35):
Hi everyone. I'm Claire Stetzer. I'm an editor at Amulet, which is with Abrams in the children's group department. I acquire middle grade and young adult titles. Oh gosh, what else about me? I'm originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My first job was at my local indie in my very small town, so I grew up just loving books and being surrounded by them and was an English major in college and then found my way to New York and started out at Sterling Children's Books, which is now Union Square Press. Was there for about nine months before I switched over to Bloomsbury Children's Books where I stayed for about six years from editorial assistant up to associate editor. I worked on everything from picture books through YA there, so I have a little bit of picture book and chapter book experience as well. And then moved over to Inkyard as an editor for middle grade and young adult. And then unfortunately that imprint was shuttered. So I freelanced for about nine months and then found myself over at Abrams where I've been since last March, so about a year and a half.
Mary Kole (01:35):
Fantastic. And would you mind giving us kind of an overview of the Abrams imprints and the character of Abrams? Because you have dipped your toe into many, many different publishing houses. And how is your new home and what might we think about when we think about Abrams?
Claire Stetzer (01:57):
So Abrams is a mid-size publisher, so we're not one of the big five kind of massive machines. And our motto is the art of books. And that's because when we were founded, we were originally an art book publisher, beautiful coffee table-style books. And of course, over the decades have evolved into publishing in a bunch of different areas. But we've kind of carried that spirit about the beauty of books, both as a product, something gorgeous to look at in terms of the beauty of the story and which stories we're telling. And the people here I just think are so passionate and dedicated and smart and lovely to work with. So I've had a great time here, but we publish pretty widely across the board in terms of adult publishing, fiction and nonfiction. We do a lot of beautiful cookbooks, which I like to give as gifts for the holidays.
(02:53):
We have a great a lot of design books and things like that. I feel like if you go to a museum and you see just a massive collection, a really thick kind of book, the odds are we might've published it. And then of course we have our children's division where … I really like the children's list because I think there's a really good mix of award winners and highly commercial projects and spanning all age ranges as well. From the littlest readers, we have a ton of interactive board books and things like that all the way up to YA. We published Diary of a Wimpy Kid. We published The Lightlark Saga, which I'm currently editing the fourth book in that series. So that's been very exciting. But yeah, we launched a new graphic novel imprint within the last year in the children's space, so we're growing in that area. But it's a very diverse list in terms of the books that we're publishing, the authors that we're championing. And I've been really enjoying my time here. I really love it.
Mary Kole (03:53):
For me, does Chad Beckerman still work as an art director there?
Claire Stetzer (03:58):
I don't know. Maybe if he's on the adult side, there's a chance he might, but I haven't heard that name.
Mary Kole (04:04):
Because about 10 years ago, so he was, when I was agenting, the art director on the children's side and he had such a design sensibility, and I always think of Abrams and I think of Chad even if he may have moved on in the years since, but it is such a distinctly visual brand. So as far as your own editorial tastes and what you tend to be drawn toward on the middle grade and YA side specifically, tell me a little bit more about what catches your eye.
Claire Stetzer (04:37):
Oh, that's a great question. I feel like in general, I'm really drawn to projects that might start from a familiar trope or a familiar, just something we've kind of seen before, but the perspective is what makes it really new and interesting. And the whole team here is very much a proponent of publishing very diversely. And so I was actually thinking about this in terms of when I was at Bloomsbury and seeing my boss at the time really push for this was when they acquired Cinderella is Dead by Kalynn Baron, which is a Cinderella retelling by a now bestselling author. And this was her debut. And at the time the acquisitions room was saying, "Oh, we've seen so many Cinderella retellings before," who's now the children's publisher over there, Mary Kay Castellani, had really championed it and said, "We have seen a lot of Cinderella retellings before, but not from a queer Black perspective." And that's what makes this so special.
And obviously the market, the consumers agreed and it took off and Kalynn has had an incredible career since then. So I feel like that's a really good example of the kind of things that I'm looking for across the board. A little more specifically in middle grade, I feel like it's the voice that really captures me. I'm very open in terms of genre when it comes to middle grade because I feel like when I think about the books that I loved at that age, it's the character. And so having a voice that feels so spot-on for that age group that doesn't talk too up or too down on the reader and just feels like a friend that you've known for forever and you just immediately get it and you just want to see how their story unfolds. So that's something in middle grade that I specifically love.
(06:19):
And also stories for that age group that can take those universal kid feelings at that age because there's so many big feelings in the middle grade age where you're kind of realizing who you are versus what people kind of are wanting you to be. And if you're kind of outgrowing things or not catching up to your peers, it's the first time I feel like those external perspectives are really impacting yourself and trying to wade through that. So I love it when books can tackle those feelings, but throw in some kind of magical twist to really amplify that. A book that I worked on at Inkyard, not to plug my own books, but that I love that really is called Totally Psychic. It's about a girl who can see and communicate with ghosts. And when she moves to a new school across the country, she starts hosting seances to become popular, but leaves the spirit portal open and all these ghosts cause chaos with her new friends. So it's moving across the country, starting over at a new school, being away from her extended family for the first time, very relatable kid feelings, and then all these ghosts just causing chaos. So that's a good thing for middle grade.
And then in terms of YA, I feel like lately I feel like there has been such a trope-ification of YA where so many stories are feeling really similar these days. So I love a balance where you can have those tropes that readers love and that they want to see, but they're just kind of dressed in a way that's really new and interesting and feels fresh. But I'm really drawn to lately in YA, those books that might be a little genre bending, that might throw a speculative twist into things, might, like I said, start from a familiar place, but kind of take an interesting turn that you might not expect, like a little genre bend, a little “this meets that” in a really interesting way. So that's kind of what I'm thinking about these days, but things always change and things that you don't expect to catch your eye, catch your eye. And that's what's fun about this job.
Mary Kole (08:13):
Yeah. So I have spent most of July actually trolling through the last 12 months of Publisher's Marketplace, and I have put out reports for middle grade and YA and picture book and saw some of your deals. Not to be kind of stalking you on that there, but I feel like we're in sort of a trend valley almost with middle grade and young adult. Middle grade has kind of been a little depressed in the last couple of years. And your trope-ification of YA I think is exactly spot on because a lot of the adults who are reading romance, romantasy, those markets are really kind of digested and distilled into little sound bites and comps, and that has definitely found its way into YA as well. Are there any sort of ways the markets specific to middle grade and YA are moving? I mean, are we going full romantasy for YA or is it saturated? Do you have any kind of your Ouija board? Is it anything? Are the ghosts whispering about a certain …?
Claire Stetzer (09:40):
Oh, I wish. I wish I could see the future. But with middle grade, I feel like we've been hearing a lot from gatekeepers, from teachers, librarians, parents, that they're really hungry for shorter middle grade, really accessible, reluctant reader appeal, short chapters just to really capture that attention span that is shrinking and shrinking I think since COVID, that has just gotten really difficult. And so obviously there will always be those kids who want to read the four-inch thick fantasy books, but more and more we've been hearing really short, accessible middle grade to keep those readers hooked into developing a lifelong love of reading. So I feel like that's what we've heard most often in middle grade. And then in YA, I feel like I keep waiting for the romantasy bubble to burst and it's not. Everyone, I was just looking at the bestseller list and it's just so fantasy, romantasy-heavy still.
And so we've been talking a lot here about what's next, looking beyond romantasy, trying to look ahead, and I'm not sure what that looks like yet. It just seems like readers are still so hungry for this. And so I've been talking to my colleagues and we were saying, oh, in times of when the world is really difficult, dystopian can boom. So I've kind of been keeping my eye out in submissions for dystopian projects that catch my eye. But I feel like I'm struggling with that because it feels so like we had such a strong dystopian moment 10, 15 years ago. So it's kind of hard to think of going back to that when those properties, even Hunger Games are still ongoing. So why would a reader turn to a new dystopian versus just going back to those old faithful series that are still there in backlist?
(11:34):
But I don't know. I feel like romantasy is kind of here to stay for a little bit longer, but that means my challenge is trying to find projects that feel like they're offering something new to the space, which is hard when there's so much out there. So it's been interesting to try to be looking ahead, but it just seems. Yeah, I'm not sure what it looks like. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
Mary Kole (12:02):
Well, I feel like, and I've had some of these conversations. My business partner, John Cusick at Folio Literary has said that he feels like dystopian is getting more grounded. So it's not just Katniss against the world. It is we are having these—he mentioned an episode of The Last of Us that really centered a queer character storyline amidst the backdrop of this kind of hellscape.
Claire Stetzer (12:33):
I know exactly which episode you're talking about. I wept.
Mary Kole (12:37):
Apparently it caused big ripples across the publishing industry because people were like, "Oh, we can really ground our dystopian and make it kind of small and intimate and personal." And it's not like, "I'm going to take down the Capitol and it's just me versus the world." So maybe that sort of personal story, because I don't want to go back to the dystopian boom that we all experienced either. And so I think so much of it is what's slant on the established will end up landing.
When you say shorter middle grade, can I pin you down to a word count range? Because I hear this from librarians, from teachers also, but where is that break point between the chapter book and maybe a lighter younger middle grade?
Claire Stetzer (13:39):
Yeah, I would say chapter book—I feel like when I was working on chapter books, 10,000 words was kind of the sweet spot for a 125 page or 120 page lightly illustrated chapter book. So I think for a middle grade, if we're going to position it as a full middle grade, I would say probably, I feel like 25 at the very slightest, thousand words up to maybe 45. But I feel like some middle grades I get in are upwards of 70,000 words. And so in general, I try to stay under 65 unless it's a fantasy, like an upper middle grade fantasy.
And obviously I feel like when it comes to word count, it always is what the book needs in terms of the story, making sure the pacing feels right and that we're explaining everything we need to. But when it comes to middle grade, I think seeing a thick book is intimidating sometimes. So those are things to consider as well. And also, is it illustrated? Is it not illustrated? You can have fewer words if we are going to have some pictures in there as well. But yeah, I would say probably 25 to 45 [thousand] is a good range.
Mary Kole (14:52):
And that's such a wonderful point about just the visual intimidation of a long book, because I remember when Hugo Cabret came out, right? But it's maybe 45,000 words. I'm just pulling this out of -
Claire Stetzer (15:08):
That was a brick. Yeah, it's so heavily illustrated.
Mary Kole (15:09):
Every other page is illustrated. However, I recommended it to my half sister who was I think 10 at the time that it came out, and immediately she was like, "No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not." Because kids are really good at sort of screening they're ready for, but that to me was so heartbreaking because it was a disconnect between of the object and the actual story and the adventure inside of it.
Claire Stetzer (15:38):
Yeah. I remember when that book came out, I was at my independent bookstore where I worked and I just sat, stood at the counter and within a day, just in between customers, just flipped through it and read the whole thing so quickly. But it is so intimidating. It's a big book, so that's definitely true.
Mary Kole (15:54):
There's similar scuttlebutt about YA. So we've identified romantasy, we've identified this trope-heavy, maybe darker, bigger, older thrust in the YA market. But similarly, we hear teachers, librarians saying, "Well, where is the light YA, the clean teen?" as they sometimes say, for maybe the 14 and 15-year-old readers who either are not romance-driven necessarily or who want a coming of age friend-centric social story.
Claire Stetzer (16:30):
Yeah. I feel very passionately about making sure we're still publishing YA for teens because I think there has been such a big push to get that adult crossover audience. And obviously there are titles where that makes sense, but there are a lot of teen readers who aren't ready for that level of content, and I want to make sure we're still publishing books for those kids. I think it gets a little tricky when you're publishing that in between middle grade and YA space. So I think the project just needs to have a vision for where it's sitting and commit to either middle grade or YA and lean into that. And I think YA as a market, I find to be frustrating sometimes in the limitations where so much of it does have to have a romance. It's almost expected at this point, but I think I at least, and I know a lot of my colleagues are passionate about finding those books that do appeal to kids who aren't looking for romance in their reads, or if it is romance, a much slower burn, like first kisses and handholding and not just full steam all the time.
(17:39):
But yeah, it can be tough with the sales team sometimes because they'll be like, "Is there romance on this?" And that is such a big selling point in the YA market. So that is definitely something that I've been struggling with. But like I said, I feel very strongly about publishing YA for teens, and I think there are a lot of people that agree. And I'm just looking at our room here. We have a poster on the wall in front of me that you can't see, but we're publishing a YA called On Again, Awkward Again that is very much in that young YA. It's by Erin Entrada Kelly and Kwame Mbalia, powerhouse co-authors. And it's just about these two kids that are super awkward, and it's just a really sweet coming of age romance, but it really is for that 14, 15-year-old reader. And that's one of our lead YAs that's coming out this year. So that's definitely a space that we are looking into and trying to publish into.
Mary Kole (18:39):
So I did recently run the numbers and of YA deals from mid-July this year to mid-July last year, the last 12 months, 53%, which seems low, but I will say explicitly or heavily implicitly had a romantic element. When it makes the deal memo, that's a pretty heavy indicator that romance is going to be a big part of the story. And then there are all the romances that weren't overtly mentioned in the deal memo.
Claire Stetzer (19:15):
Right. I'm thinking of a thriller that I have on my list, and I'm trying to think of the announcement language, but I don't think we mentioned the subplot, but there is a romantic subplot, but the main hook of it is this thriller element. So yeah, I think it's something that it's expected at this point. And so I find that, like I said, I find that to be very frustrating because there's so many kinds of stories out there. And when I think about myself at that age, I feel like the friendship stuff was the more angsty, wrenching, like a friendship breakup was devastating. So yeah, I think that with middle grade, I love that there's more freedom with that, that you're not kind of limited by that romance piece, and there are just so many avenues that you can explore, but that is definitely something that you feel with YA.
Mary Kole (20:03):
And it is a drastic drop-off. It's like 5% of 200 deal memos in middle grade, even whisper at a crush or a first kiss. In YA, it's 53%, might as well be 80 probably. This brings me to a question from the community. There are slower and maybe less exciting on the acquisitions front categories, for example, just straight coming of age in either middle grade or YA. Also historical, which has historically—don't laugh, that was terrible—been a little bit tougher. And I know it all depends on the story and the period and all of that. What's your read on historical across these two?
Claire Stetzer (20:55):
Oh, that's a good question. I think for middle grade, actually, I'll say for both categories, I think historical can really work when it feels really relevant to the kid who's reading it today. And I think that historical fiction done well can almost feel like a fantasy book because it's so immersive in a time period that kids don't really know that much about, and so might be learning, but just the sights, the sounds, the clothes, everything about it, it can be really different and in a way that feels like a fantasy book. But I think that for a lot of kids, it can feel like school. It can feel like homework kind of to pick up a historical. And so maybe historical and inspired fantasy is an entry point to get a kid more interested in historical fiction. But like I said, I feel like when it can be really, really relatable, when a kid today can look back and say, "Oh, that kid is struggling with this like I am, and that was 200 years ago," or something like that, I think that's when those connections can be made and it can be really interesting.
And then not to talk about romance again, but historical romance is booming because of—well, not necessarily booming, but I think that is an avenue in YA that can be a little bit more, maybe optimistic is the right word, but I think because of Bridgerton and things like that, that has really opened the door for that kind of space. But I feel like it's not, in terms of sales, in terms of bestsellers, I don't think I've seen a ton of historical fiction romance in YA taking off in a huge way, but that has certainly opened the door a little bit.
Mary Kole (22:39):
I was actually going to go in completely the opposite direction. And for example, a queer romance cast in a historical setting, there were a lot of different challenges, but maybe kind of applicable to challenges with queer identities that are happening now, that could be a nice parallel that makes period X relevant to today, for example.
Claire Stetzer (23:08):
Absolutely. Or even the escapist piece of it where it's queer characters existing in a historical setting and you just strip away the realistic piece of what this would actually look like. And this may be more of a fantasy too, but I think that that can be really fun. I feel like you see that with the casting in Bridgerton, and I worked on a historical fantasy or a historical romance at Inkyard that was centered a young Black character in London society. And obviously at that time period, she would not be allowed anywhere near society. But the best part about fiction is that you can take some liberties there and you could still have talks about sexism and colorism and racism and everything, but still get those characters in the room and get to experience those things. So those are fun ways to explore it as well.
Mary Kole (24:01):
Well, this tees us up perfectly for the next community question, which is that issue-driven seems like a tough sell in YA, and I will expand that to middle grade. Oh, the question says middle grade. And I know we always tell people if it's a queer character, the plot shouldn't just be, oh, I'm coming out and people are against it, and that's kind of just the plot. It's, I just happen to be queer and there's a plot, or I happen to be Black, and that's not the whole focus. Has the conversation about issue books in the Ellen Hopkins tradition changed at all since you've really been acquiring?
Claire Stetzer (24:48):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've heard that too, that it's a little bit tougher to break out an issue book these days, but I think it all depends on the pitch because I think there's space for things that deal with weightier topics and emotions and things like that. I think it's just all about the strategy and how you're positioning it and being able to comp to something that has come out recently that has done very well. And of course I say that and I have no examples that I can point of, but I think there could be an issue woven into a fantasy or woven into a romance. I feel like the book that I keep comping to that I would love to find something for my list is You've Reached Sam, which is about grief and things like that. But it has this great concept, like a speculative twist of this girl whose boyfriend just died and she's able to still talk to him on the phone.
They just released a special edition of that book and it hit number one on the list how many years later after it published ahead of a new book by that author. So I think there are ways to dress it in a way that feels timely that it could come out in this market, but that is definitely something that we've kind of been saying as well, that it's just a little bit tougher. And to your point about, I feel like I always think of it as the element that makes it diverse being the conflict alone, I think it depends. I think in recent years, I think there's been a big push to just show queer joy and Black joy and things like that and not just have the only representations of these identities be devastating stories where all the characters are dying and there's just no hope and things like that.
(26:38):
But I think the world is still hard, and so I don't want to wash away those real experiences that are still happening, but I think people are just a little more mindful in the diversity within the diversity that we're showing and making sure that we're not just publishing the misery porn kind of stories. But if that's the story that you want to tell and you feel strongly about telling it, then I think that there's a lot of importance to that, and I think that will come across in the writing too, but I think it's just about making a full story around it that feels like something that we haven't seen yet to add to that conversation in the market, if that makes sense.
Mary Kole (27:29):
Yeah. I'm going to pin you down to something because in a lot of these hypothetical examples, as we've gone through questions and talked about trends, you have been like well put a … And this goes with the genre mashup trend, but you have been kind of like, "Well, put a fantasy element on it, put a speculative element on it, put a bird on it." What if that doesn't come naturally to writers? Or if somebody is speculative-curious, how are these elements used to enhance the rest of the story or how should they be used in your estimation?
Claire Stetzer (28:15):
Yeah, so I feel like not everyone is going to be a fantasy writer is going to be a speculative writer, and that's absolutely fine. And I think what's fun about fiction is that you can play with those rules however much you want. But I think if you want to stay very real world-based, that's absolutely fine. And then I think it just becomes, what about my story is adding something new to what's been discussed already? What about these characters? And maybe it is just the characters and the voice and the writing that you're bringing to it. It doesn't have to be necessarily a plot point or the story itself, but just the way that it's being told, the structure of it, there are a lot of places to play within it. I think that there's a strength in knowing what your strengths are, but also not being afraid to try something new. I feel like I forgot the second part of your question, which was maybe how to delve into that.
Mary Kole (29:18):
Let me rephrase. When a speculative element or a fantasy element or any kind of mashup element really works, what is it usually about it that sort of just lifts everything else up for you when you're like, "Wow, that specific tweak is the sauce?"
Claire Stetzer (29:42):
I don't know if I have an answer to that because I think it kind of depends on just the execution of the project, the writing itself, the story arc and everything, because I'm trying to think of projects that I've worked on in that kind of space. I was very lucky to inherit Anne Liang's debut novel, If You Could See the Sun, when I was at Inkyard and wrapped up the last few rounds of edits on that. And that story is about a girl who is at a Beijing International Boarding School. She's the only scholarship student among very wealthy, Crazy Rich Asians-style classmates. And she loses her scholarship and she might not be able to graduate at that school anymore. But then she starts turning invisible randomly and she uses that invisibility to blackmail people for tuition money. So this is a great book.
The pitch is bananas and it's like there's an academic rivals to lovers romance. It's coming of age arc about this girl who wanted to be valedictorian to get the best job, to support her family after school and everything. And then she's this anti-hero superhero with these invisibility powers, stealing money from people. But what worked about that was just everything combined perfectly into a really compelling story with fantastic writing. And so I think that's a really good example of what I was talking about with a familiar story with a wrench in it that just takes it in a totally new direction. But that kind of structure might fall apart in a different story if the writing's not there, if the story arc, if you can't blend all of those pieces together in a way that makes sense. And then I have another book that's coming out from Abrams next year that, gosh, I haven't had to pitch this in a minute, so this might be messy, but it's essentially -
Mary Kole (31:30):
See? Even publishing insiders struggle to get that crisp logline.
Claire Stetzer (31:35):
Oh yeah. I know. And we had this launch meeting a while ago, so it's been a minute since I've given my elevator pitch, but we're pitching it as Caraval meets The Inheritance Games. So it's like magical spectacle plus thriller, high stakes mystery situation. But it's about a girl who wins a lottery ticket to what is essentially the Met Gala, but with magic. And in this world, there was a family a century ago created a pharmaceutical that would give its user magical powers. But of course, it's very expensive, so only the wealthy can really use it. And she is determined to get a spot in their training program because her father passed away in an accident and she couldn't afford the surgery with the magical doctors that would've saved him. And so she wants to be a magical doctor, essentially. And that world, it kind of is a reinvention of history, like this happened a hundred years ago and now we're in New York City and this is where we meet this girl and you see people using this magic on the subway and things like that.
But then once she gets to the gala and she meets the very wealthy and powerful people who can build magic and discovers a sinister plot that she gets entangled in and there's a bisexual love triangle and it's delightful. But with that story, I feel like it's less of a wrench and more of the whole concept is this blend of genres. And the author is a med student, and so she's bringing her science background into this and stuff like that. So I feel like that's a very different way of treating that kind of blend of genres. So I think there's a lot of ways to execute it. And it's just about at the end of the day, is the voice there? Is the writing there? Is the story arc there? And a pitch that sounds exciting to get somebody's attention. I feel like those are the key ingredients that you need to get started.
Mary Kole (33:26):
Yeah. And I just want to pull out in both of the examples that you just mentioned, the Inkyard book and then this book, the speculative element has the ring of universal truth to it. So who hasn't felt invisible? But we just blow it up and we turn it into an actual power to be used for good or bad. And here, I mean, I happen to be in New York City visiting when the UnitedHealth CEO was taken offline, and I feel like that comes into some of the critiques of the healthcare system and some of the paranoias that we have about big pharma. And not to make anything political here, but it's sort of in the zeitgeist, this conversation. And this is a take down of that through a classist underdog lens.
Claire Stetzer (34:23):
Yeah. No, thank you for pulling that connection out of the story babbling that I just said because I'm like, no, that totally makes sense. You are absolutely right.
Mary Kole (34:31):
I love the story babbling. So let's take a somewhat abrupt left turn into the younger side of things. I have another question here, and I'm especially excited to get your answer to this one. Do you have any hot takes on highly illustrated middle grade or chapter book? Is that something you hear anything about? And I think that there's nobody better to speak to that than kind of the Wimpy Kid, the house that Wimpy Kid built. And it's just explosion of graphic novel adaptations and very, very highly illustrated projects even in middle grade. So go.
Claire Stetzer (35:14):
Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of hunger for that. And I think that all ties into what I was saying about that intimidation and reluctant reader appeal. I think for a reader who sees a lot of illustrations on a page, fewer words on a page that can feel more accessible and fun and just not to shade on non-illustrated books because I love those two, but I think we have seen such a boom in graphic novels, and I don't edit graphic novels personally, but we publish so many of them. Like I said, we kind of carved out an entire imprint because we were publishing so many of them. And I think that's the appeal is that it feels like for kids who maybe don't like reading, it doesn't feel like reading at first, but that's kind of a way to hook you in and see, oh no, this actually is reading.
And then you can dive into something more like Wimpy Kid where it still is highly illustrated, but it's not full color. It's a little bit more text heavy than maybe a full graphic novel and then maybe something that's a little bit less than that, maybe a handful of illustrations throughout instead of that layout where you see all the illustrations and the design elements on the page. So I think it's a really great entry point for a lot of kids. And I think as we've been hearing that call for more and more books that appeal to those reluctant readers that appeal to kids who don't have that attention span to sit and read for a long time, I think that's a great option.
Mary Kole (36:35):
Yeah. And do those, be honest, do those tend to find more success when the creator is the same for the author and illustrator? Or do you find yourselves at Abrams specifically matchmaking and having that work out and go through acquisitions and all of that as well?
Claire Stetzer (36:56):
Yeah, we definitely do both. And I feel like with graphic novels, my colleagues probably have more opinions on that because I think with a graphic novel when so much of the vision for the book is visual, obviously there are graphic novel scripts that we pair with illustrators, that's not unheard of. But I think on that end, and I hope my colleagues won't hit me over the head for saying this, but I think it is nice when you have a creator that can do both or a package that comes together. These creators have already found each other and they've already collaborated on the proposal that's coming to the editor.
Mary Kole (37:29):
Yeah. And in chapter book, which is by its very nature, short, accessible, highly illustrated, are we seeing more graphic novel treatments there as well?
Claire Stetzer (37:42):
For sure. I mean, we've even started coining graphic picture book kind of thing. They're picture books, but they have the feel of a graphic novel with panels and stuff like that. And so that's definitely a space that we've been publishing in as well for sure and at the chapter book level.
Mary Kole (37:59):
Yeah. Well, another great segue to a question I have with the caveat that you don't do as much picture book as you do middle grade and young adults, but I will ask you, representative of the House of Iggy Peck, Architect, are STEM or STEAM picture books of interest to Abrams?
Claire Stetzer (38:21):
Oh, absolutely. And again, I think it just depends on what exactly it is because I think there has been a boom in those subjects for kids, which I love to see, especially BIPOC kids, girls getting into these subjects where we predominantly don't see a lot of characters like that in those spaces. So I think it all depends on what exactly the book is and does it have that hook that has the STEM, but what else is it bringing to this market that has seen some STEM books come out in recent years?
Mary Kole (38:50):
And the picture book listed Abrams, would you characterize it more fiction, more nonfiction, more kind of hybridized?
Claire Stetzer (38:57):
That's a good question. I feel like it is a good mix. We just had launch for, oh gosh, spring ‘26. Oh no, we had sales conference. We have a launch coming up, but I'm trying to think of the picture books that we presented, and I feel like it is a pretty good mix between fiction and nonfiction. And even between commercial and literary award winners, I feel like it's a really diverse list in that sense.
Mary Kole (39:21):
Another really big, and I'll get off of picture books in a minute, but a really big trend in the last few years has been SEL, social emotional learning, big feelings, mindfulness, da, da, da, da. Is that something that's still hot, just like STEM & STEAM was maybe three, five years ago, or is the bubble fizzling?
Claire Stetzer (39:45):
That's probably a better question for my colleagues because they're more in this space than I am. And I remember when I was at Bloomsbury, I worked on a picture book that was an import from the UK office, but it was Ruby Finds a Worry, and we ended up kind of branding all of this author's books with the Big Bright Feelings series. And they were all about, one was about being yourself and it had a queer allegory to it. And that one was about worrying and anxiety, and there was one about making friends and one about anger.
Mary Kole (40:18):
That one is mine, probably.
Claire Stetzer (40:21):
And it's so fun because I have two nieces and a nephew and they have some of those books and they ask for them by name. Sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I love those. I love working on those." And that was such a big moment when those came out, gosh, maybe five, six years ago at that point. And I think that those subjects are always worthy, but again, it's just what about your book is adding to the space? But in terms of if that's something my colleagues are actively looking for right now, I'm not specifically sure.
Mary Kole (40:49):
Yeah. And this, I'm a big liar. A question just came in about picture books.
Claire Stetzer (40:55):
No, it's okay. I just feel bad. I haven't worked on picture books in a while, so it's definitely not my area of expertise, but I'll do my best.
Mary Kole (41:03):
So I did offhandedly mention hybrids of fiction and nonfiction in the picture book space, meaning maybe we're teaching something, but there's a narrative lens, right? Would you say that that's represented on the Abrams list as far as you know, or is it mostly get in one lane and stick in it?
Claire Stetzer (41:26):
No, I think so. I feel like, and I can't remember if this was maybe something one of my colleagues brought to an edit meeting and maybe, I don't know if we've signed it up officially, but I feel like there have been projects like that that we've talked about, but nothing specific that comes to mind just because that's not my area of expertise.
Mary Kole (41:42):
And pulling out from this, so you've said several times already, what is the STEM element? How is it presented? What is the SEL element? How is it presented? I think that in both of those trend pockets, the market is so mature that it can't just be like, "This is how you deal with anxiety or let's do five breathing exercises and this is what mindfulness is." So how does somebody working in a more mature market maybe approach a subject matter and port it over to a story?
Claire Stetzer (42:21):
Oh, that's a good question.
Mary Kole (42:24):
That's the $10,000 question.
Claire Stetzer (42:28):
Yeah. I mean, I think it just comes down to thinking outside of the box, and I think it can look in a lot of different ways. I'm remembering a colleague has a book, and I'm looking at one of our books now that's called Patience. And so there's definitely a picture book that we publish about patience, but she has a board book that has breathing techniques and it has ridges built into it. And so you follow your finger and it's like a cloud with bumps like that, and you breathe in and then out and follow the finger and things like that. So in that sense, it's the format that has that element to it that is a different kind of book in that “how do we calm ourselves, calm our bodies?” kind of space. So I think it's just finding that seed of what you want your book to be, and then just playing with it and seeing what kind of different character you can bring to it.
Maybe it's a different narrator or different perspective on it, or maybe it's a format thing that could be something different or. I can't think of any other options right now, but you know what I mean. I feel like within storytelling, there are so many freedoms that you can take and to not be afraid to look at things from a different angle and take a big, what if this was told in a totally different way or what if this happened kind of thing. And a good way to maybe practice that is to just try combining things. If you just take a walk through a bookstore and be like, "Oh, what if that book was in that format? Or what if these characters were in this other story kind of thing?" And just seeing what's out there and seeing if that can spark anything that can add a layer to your story that just gives it that extra push it needs to really stand out.
Mary Kole (44:12):
Yeah. And that's a really interesting note about format. Now, I'm going to ask about the cloud book, fully realizing you may not have been in the room for that format decision or the managing editor, whatever. But when somebody has an idea like that, is that something that—and in a design forward house like Abrams, I would imagine a lot is possible, but die cuts and all of that, ridges, touch and feel formats cost more money. So a lot of debut authors maybe don't feel like they can make a suggestion. Was that something the author feasibly brought to you guys and you ran with it or was that a decision made on the editorial side, the production side, and the P&L worked?
Claire Stetzer (45:02):
So I think it was a buy-in actually. So I think it was published overseas originally and we had a dummy. And from there, once we liked it, then the editor who ended up acquiring it looked at the cost to see if we could make the P&L work. So I totally get it. From the outset, it can be hard to put forward a picture book dummy or a board book dummy and say, "I want all these bells and whistles” because that will be expensive. But I think there's something to be said about the right publishing partner seeing the vision in that and that those elements can be great selling points, but it is also about making the cost work at the end of the day.
Mary Kole (45:40):
But it is something that maybe a writer, their agent, whatever, can suggest or can put forward as part of the pitch.
Claire Stetzer (45:49):
Yeah. And you can say ideally the vision for this would be to have a gate fold in the last spread or something like that. And obviously we're open to discussing with the publisher what that could actually look like. And I think that openness to collaboration and discussion is welcome on the publisher side when we see pitches like that. And then I think also on the author side, you want a publisher who is willing to have those discussions with you and to really look at the options and see what's possible. But I will say something I love about Abrams is that we love talking about format and really if there's a project that we believe in, how do we make this package look really special and feel special? And is that thicker paper? Is that cloth case? Whatever it may be. And obviously mindful of costs and making sure P&Ls work and everything, but those are conversations that we're having.
Mary Kole (46:42):
Yeah. And a gate fold for the people is when it is printed. So it's folded in on itself so you have the normal spread, but then you can open it and it's like a double spread when you're viewing it. Obviously it has to be set up at the printers a certain way and all of that kind of pattern breaking stuff does cost extra money. I worked at Chronicle, and so I feel a little kinship with Abrams because both houses are known for their art books and their focus on design and format and all of that. Wow, I think we have done an awful lot. We did have a question come in under the wire and this one might cause some angst, so I apologize. How long is your TBR, maybe that's your personal life, and your submission folder -
Claire Stetzer (47:42):
Oh God.
Mary Kole (47:43):
Right now. And how many Kleenex boxes? Let's rank it included. Is it one tier?
Claire Stetzer (47:52):
Oh gosh.
Mary Kole (47:53):
All the tiers?
Claire Stetzer (47:54):
So my submissions inbox is maximum tiers right now. I am quite behind on submissions and I am very, very grateful for the lovely agents who are very understanding of that. And I was hoping to catch up on a bunch this summer, but summer has been very, very busy. This has been the busiest summer of my working career and I'm barely keeping my own editorial projects moving. So that is maximum sadness. But in terms of my own TBR, I feel like I don't have a real TBR. I have a notes app where I just, if somebody, because whenever I talk to book folks, I'm like, "What are you reading? What are you into right now? What are you watching?" I just love mining recommendations from people. And also just seeing what people are talking about, because that's ultimately information for me to keep in mind what people are into.
And so if somebody mentions a book that sounds interesting, I'll add it to my list. But I feel like the outside of work reading I'm doing lately, I'm only capable of listening to or reading a very specific book. And so it depends on what mood I am. I just finished my audiobook and my print book and print, it takes me maybe two months to finish a book. And audio, I can do two a month because I'm running errands, I just have it on while I'm existing, but I'm definitely less critical and pay less attention when I'm listening to an audiobook. In certain genres, I feel like I can't do an audio, but I just listened to Margo's Got Money Troubles, which I loved. And Elle Fanning did the audiobook and she is just delightful. So a colleague recommended it and thought I would love it.
(49:31):
I was like, "You were right. I loved it." And then in print, I just finished Carrie Soto is Back. So I know everyone's talking about Atmosphere, the new Taylor Jenkins read, but I wasn't behind. I just finished Carrie Soto, which I loved. And so now I was looking on Spotify to figure out what next audiobook I want to start. And I think, like I said, summer has been very stressful and very work-driven, so I think I'm going to go for an Abby Jimenez romance because I have her audiobooks and I usually tear through them in a few days. So I haven't listened to her new one yet, so I think that's going to be next for me. But yeah, it's kind of like what vibe am I in? Am I in the mood for something that might be a little bit more sit down and take a little more focus, find a print copy. And if not, just what might I want to listen to? And I'm in a book club too, and so we'll read. We meet once every two months, so it's not a big commitment.
Mary Kole (50:21):
Perfect for your timeline.
Claire Stetzer (50:22):
Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, no real TBR in my actual life. And I don't set goals for myself in terms of outside of work reading just because I read so much for my work and that seems overwhelming.
Mary Kole (50:35):
Yeah. But it also sounds like you maybe gravitate toward adult.
Claire Stetzer (50:39):
A little bit, yeah, in terms of my extracurricular reading, because I think I just need to turn my work brain off for a little bit. But I think with things in the adult space that are working, it's all kind of connected and it's fun to say, "Oh, how could a book like Margo translate into YA?" Or tennis, I feel like was having such a big moment. Is there a tennis YA that should work on? Now I'm like, wait, that actually sounds really fun. But sports YA can be tricky anyway.
Mary Kole (51:04):
Why can sports YA be tricky? Because I have thoughts.
Claire Stetzer (51:08):
Yeah. So I don't know. I think it was just one of those categories that when I was coming up as an editor, everyone was like, "Oh, superhero YA can be hard. Sports YA can be hard." And I think sometimes sales teams just get these things in their head, and I find it frustrating as an editor because it's like, "Well, this book is really good though. Can we try to think outside the box here and see how we can make this happen?" So I think there just hasn't been a really strong YA sports book, at least that I can think of. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think without having such a clear comp to point to, it's hard to fight for something like that. But we publish, oh gosh, is his name Tommy Greenwald in middle grade, but he does very sports-driven middle grade.
So there's definitely a space for that in that age group, but I feel like it can be a little harder in YA. Although I'm remembering there's a book that hit the list from a trans author about a football player, I think. So maybe that is kind of a way in is to pull in those timely social issues from a creator who was speaking from their background and talking about sports that way. But now I'm like, "I want a tennis book."
Mary Kole (52:21):
You heard it here. And also Summer Fridays are dead. That is a myth.
Claire Stetzer (52:26):
I have not taken a single Summer Friday this summer.
Mary Kole (52:31):
Well, Claire, thank you so, so much for coming and talking to us. You are a delight, and I know that everybody has benefited from listening to you, and we just really appreciate your time, your insight. Yeah.
Claire Stetzer (52:48):
No, thank you for having me. Thank you for asking me to do this. I hope this was helpful, and it's been wonderful to meet with you and speak with you, and I've appreciated your comments and everything as well, so it's been really interesting.
Mary Kole (52:59):
Oh, likewise. Well, thank you. And maybe in the fall things will relax a little.
Claire Stetzer (53:05):
So I hope so. I think it will.
Mary Kole (53:09):
Perfect.
Claire Stetzer (53:10):
It's great work, so I'm lucky to be busy with it.
Mary Kole (53:13):
Absolutely. As much as we complain and are really cute about it sometimes.
Claire Stetzer (53:19):
It's the best job in the world, so absolutely.
Mary Kole (53:24):
Here, we do it like the youths.
Claire Stetzer (53:26):
Oh yeah. I always have to think about that because my millennials also goes like this. But anyway, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day and yeah, talk soon.
Mary Kole (53:34):
Yeah. Thank you so much. Bye everyone.
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