Episode 54: Marisa Churchill, Author & Chef
From Top Chef to magical cooking school: Food Network personality and chef Marisa Churchill chats about her upcoming YA novel, Secrets, Spells, and Chocolate! Find out how she pivoted from cookbook to novel writing inspired by her years of culinary experience. Plus, tips on book marketing, fantasy world-building, and school visits.
Transcript for Episode 54 with Marisa Churchill
Mary Kole (00:23):
Welcome everybody to the Thriving Writers Podcast. My name is Mary Kole, and with me I have the beautiful, talented, effervescent Marisa Churchill, to talk about her upcoming novel, [fanfare] Secrets, Spells, and Chocolate. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Marisa Churchill (00:44):
I will. Sure. So I am not only a writer, I am a chef, and I was on Top Chef and Food Network Challenge, which is part of where the inspiration for this book came from. And yes, and now I am venturing into YA fantasy, all about food.
Mary Kole (01:04):
I love it. And I have so many clients who are like, I used to be prominent in this field or that field, but what I really want to do is write novels.
Marisa Churchill (01:17):
Well, you’ve know me for quite a while because you helped me on this journey, so I have to give you a shout out for that because you have been amazing, and I don't know if I would've gotten to this point without you truly. No, really. So, because chefs are really creative and I feel like especially pastry chefs, my area of expertise was baking and pastry, or is baking and pastry, but I am a mom now. I've got two little kids and not going to be spending all my days working in a restaurant and coming home at 2 AM. So this was really a way for me also to use that creative energy in a new way. And I feel like in some ways there are similarities between cooking and writing a novel. You're kind of playing with different flavors and textures when you're developing a dish. And it's like that with a book as well. And as you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. That's almost sometimes painful. You get Mary Kole's notes, what about this? I don't think this is working. And then you have to say, darn it, I think she's right.
Mary Kole (02:24):
But hopefully painful in a good way, in a growth kind of hurts. Stretching yourself kind of hurts sometimes.
Marisa Churchill (02:32):
No, absolutely. I mean, if there's one piece of advice that I could give to aspiring writers, it would be that it would be to keep an open mind and always take that feedback, always look for ways that you can make it better and stronger. Because each round of edits I did on this book, I felt like it grew and became stronger.
Mary Kole (02:50):
And it absolutely did. I was there, and I just love how you dove in, were so committed. And yes, you did take a lot of feedback, which very humbling, very satisfying. But you were just so, so wonderful about continuing to level up. I think that in any creative endeavor, whether it's pastry, whether it's cookbooks, because you're also a published author of cookbooks.
Marisa Churchill (03:19):
Yes. That's, thank you for adding that in. I forgot my own memo.
Mary Kole (03:23):
Well, you have such a lengthy and impressive resume that things kind of pop out of the brain sometimes.
Marisa Churchill (03:30):
Thank you.
Mary Kole (03:31):
But it's a continual sort of learning and crafting and just a commitment to excellence, which is what I really admire about you.
Marisa Churchill (03:41):
Oh, well, thank you. I mean, it is, I truly love the craft of writing and storytelling, especially in this genre. And so I do. I really want to get better at it because I want readers to enjoy my books as much as I enjoyed writing them. You don't want somebody to pick up a novel if they're trying to force themselves to read it because they're your best friend or they're your mom.
Mary Kole (04:05):
Oh, absolutely. I can feel that. So let's talk about the cookbooks for a little bit. And were obviously here to talk about this one, but can you tell me a little bit more? So you've obviously been on television, you have quite a prominent brand, and that led to a brand extension in the form of cookbooks. So what was that process like and getting published? And then we're going to compare and contrast to the novel.
Marisa Churchill (04:31):
Okay. Yeah. So aside from Top Chef and Food Network, I have done a variety of TV shows. I even have my own cooking show in Greece because I'm Greek on my mom's side. And so I've published cookbooks here with Random House, and I've also published in Greece with Patakis, which is a big publishing house in Greece. And for me, it's funny because when I would get approached by magazines such as Food and Wine or Bon Appetit, I'm a Fit Chef. So it was, Hey, we need a lighter, healthier recipe, let's ask Marisa. And so that's how the idea for my first cookbook, Sweet & Skinny, first came about was what if I could find that kind of sweet spot in every recipe where you cut down on some of the fat, but you don't actually know that you're missing anything? And I will say, coming from a fine dining background, and we're talking around 2010, I got a lot of heat from that from other chefs that just thought, why are you doing this? That's so stupid. And of course now it's become a big thing. So for me, it was interesting and there was this learning curve there of just other chefs having certain expectations of what the next step is that you should take.
And the writing process of that was fairly simple. It was a lot easier than writing a novel. I mean, I compare it, I say, listen, writing a cookbook is like you've planted a tree, you've watched it grow. And if you're lucky, you're going to get to pick a few apples. But writing a novel, you are birthing a baby, there is blood, there is sweat, there are tears. It is a whole other ball of wax. I mean, speaking creatively or also just speaking about the marketing aspects as well.
Mary Kole (06:19):
So the marketing is something that I'm actually very interested to talk to you about. And I have a cute little thing that I want to show the people because we're in pre-publication, sort of the runup to your release, but the audience is very different. So the audience for cookbooks, you can generally market directly to them. You can make use of social media in different ways than you would for a children's book. And yeah, kids, teens, they do hang out online. But generally there is that hurdle of we're not really messaging directly to the audience in that case. So can you tell me a little bit about that pivot?
Marisa Churchill (07:04):
So yeah, so that has been different for me is how do I reach the readers? And so part of that has been trying to reach the gatekeepers to the readers, whether that is a YA blogger, YA influencer, librarians, people that are buying books at bookstores, all of them. And part of that has been trying to network, I'm what many chefs and writers are—I'm an introvert, so going out every night to events where I can meet people and rub elbows and strike up conversations is not my strength. But I have been trying to embrace it and it has already paid off. I've made some great contacts. In fact, this past weekend, I will not mention at the bookstore, but there was a bookstore that I kept reaching out to, kept reaching out to, did not get a response. And then the person who's their book buyer happened to be at an event that I was at. And luckily I brought my husband who's an extrovert, he started talking to her and then I found out who she was and was able to talk and it all worked out. But yeah, so I am trying to come up with some different ways to market, but I'm also trying to really lean into my skillset as a chef because I feel like that is a unique way in which I can still market the book, whether it's trying to do cooking segments on TV or by sending care packages to people for pre-order giveaways or for bloggers to talk about. So yes, and I sent you one. I sent you one too. And I've actually been working on some fun little different renditions for Halloween and Christmas as well.
Mary Kole (08:48):
Ooh, very fun. So you scooped me. This is what I wanted to talk to the people about. This is my beautiful gift box from Marisa. You have the crest and the sides are just color matched and it's very, very tastefully done. And when you open it, it has a magnetic lid. And these PR packages have been all the rage now, and they are going to, like you said, gatekeepers, influencers, anybody that may have a vested interest and a platform in partnering with you in some way. And so unfortunately the cool effect has run its course, but when you open it—
Marisa Churchill (09:36):
It should do this. Yes, it should do this. And light up.
Mary Kole (09:41):
There you go. You have your own mine malfunctioned. I'm sorry to say. The lights are still here, so it has lights in it so that the lights bounce off the holographic top, which is fantastic. We have some crinkle paper in there, a little card for me. But you have made various things that tie directly back into the book: A beautiful bookmark with a whisk on it, because the tagline for the book is, “At the world's greatest magical cooking school, risks matter just as much as whisks",” which I think is fabulous. And then what do we have here?
Marisa Churchill (10:31):
The gummy fish from Madame Godard's office.
Mary Kole (10:33):
Oh, amazing. Gummy fish.
Marisa Churchill (10:36):
Fruity.
Mary Kole (10:37):
And we have an image of the school printed on a chocolate on edible paper, I'm guessing.
Marisa Churchill (10:45):
Yes. They're icing sheet for illustrations. And it's valrhona chocolate.
Mary Kole (10:50):
Valrhona chocolate. So I'm married to a chef. I am sort of tangential to the cooking world, but if you don't know, valrhona chocolate is like the standard bearer for kind of high-end culinary chocolate. Not only that. Ooh. And these chocolates are even dusted in glitter, edible glitter.
Marisa Churchill (11:15):
Of course.
Mary Kole (11:15):
And this is an image from the cover?
Marisa Churchill (11:18):
That is correct, yes.
Mary Kole (11:21):
It is just fantastic. And I am going to have a snack after this interview.
Marisa Churchill (11:26):
Perfect. Go for it. Exactly. While the kids are at school, so you don't have to share.
Mary Kole (11:32):
I have a chocolate stash in my house that everybody tries to pilfer, but they know that they're going to hear about it because it's like, no, no, this is, I need to have something nice in my life. And I have a section of my pantry that's full of chocolate.
Marisa Churchill (11:49):
You could even say it's for work. You're not allowed to cook.
Mary Kole (11:51):
It is for work. This is a taste tester, even though I'm sure it tastes delicious. And please buzz off.
Marisa Churchill (12:00):
Exactly. Now I have to show you this one though, because I would've sent you one of these, but I had not made them yet. But I am working on some fun get chocolate giveaways for Halloween. So modeling chocolate also valrhona, we also have redone, oh, actually, do you want to see the one with the characters?
Mary Kole (12:22):
Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh.
Marisa Churchill (12:25):
So these are all for pre-order giveaways, but I thought it would be fun also since you showed the characters. So I gave them a little Halloween makeover.
Mary Kole (12:35):
That is so cute. So they have the first one had a little pumpkin made out of modeling chocolate. This is like a little witch's hat.
Marisa Churchill (12:43):
Yes, exactly. That Flora's wearing on her head. And then Georgia has gone from holding cupcakes to little candy skulls. And I'm not sure what sylvie's whipping up, but I'm sure it's something spooktacular.
Mary Kole (12:55):
Something spooktacular. So Marisa just told me off this recording that she got Canva. So watch out world.
Marisa Churchill (13:05):
Oh yeah. I am really, really clueless when it comes to technology and all this stuff, but yes.
Mary Kole (13:13):
But now you are, nobody can stop you.
Marisa Churchill (13:14):
We're going to be there. I'm going to do it. Yes. We'll see how it goes. I reached out to another author who put something together and I said, wow, how did you do that? It's called Canva. Oh, it wasn't some magical spell that you whipped up? Okay.
Mary Kole (13:30):
But to that point, you have whipped these up, literally.
Marisa Churchill (13:36):
Yes.
Mary Kole (13:37):
And that has been a materials cost.
Marisa Churchill (13:41):
Yes.
Mary Kole (13:42):
That has been a labor cost. It's also been a creative cost because you have made this into an outlet for your culinary creativity and also your marketing creativity. And that is a lot of work.
Marisa Churchill (13:58):
It is, yeah. It is a lot of work. There have been many, many days where I have gotten up at 2:30 or 3:30 in the morning to start my day because I am working on, well, not working on, I just finished book two. Yes, yes. So it just went off to my agent today.
Mary Kole (14:19):
Today? Today, today? What a slacker you are. Just kidding.
Marisa Churchill (14:24):
No, I know. It's that whole type a pastry chef in me.
Mary Kole (14:29):
Oh, that's so funny. So I have actually interned or provided grunt work to a pastry chef. If you wouldn't mind, can you tell me a little bit about the kind of rivalry between the pastry chefs and the food chefs? Because baking is all about measuring ingredients and everything is organized, and then you have the people who are flipping stuff over an open flame on the other side of it.
Marisa Churchill (14:56):
Yes. One of those people one time put my tempered beautiful chocolates into the freezer overnight. Yes, exactly. I know you see that. I know.
Mary Kole (15:05):
The chocolates and Marisa lost their temper that day.
Marisa Churchill (15:09):
Yes, that is true. That is true. You see, and this is part of what I wanted to bring into the book, because I know that there have been books written about food before and even food and magic, but not in somebody who knows this world so intimately. So as you said, yes, there are rivalries, there are great bonds in the culinary world, but there's a reason that they don't have Top Writers. They have Top Chef because yes, we will get the knives out and we'll go to battle. So yes, I think that sometimes in certain situations, executive chefs, I have to be careful here. Your husband is a chef.
Mary Kole (15:49):
And he's not on the pastry side. No, it's okay. I am a neutral party.
Marisa Churchill (15:54):
Yes. Okay, perfect. You could be Switzerland, but no, they think of us as being very uptight and a little more high maintenance, thinking of ourselves more as artists and yes, and we just think of them as sometimes being a little bit sloppy, a little less refined.
Mary Kole (16:14):
Yes. So they're the wild animals in one corner.
Marisa Churchill (16:18):
Yes. And we're the little Deon freeze with our lovely little studded collars.
Mary Kole (16:25):
I was going to call you a beautiful unicorn, just standing regally in the pastry kitchen.
Marisa Churchill (16:31):
Yes. There we go. With my rainbow mane that I'm tossing around.
Mary Kole (16:36):
Oh my goodness. So that's actually a really good point, and I do want to get back to kind of the labor, emotional, creative, financial of marketing a book. But to your point about the experience that you brought to the novel itself, I think that is really, really important because you took years and years and years of just firsthand lived experience in the kitchen and you infused, I'm trying to make food puns. You infused that into this. And I can go ahead and say, because I’ve read versions of it, that just the world is so rich, and I think it was such a great choice to make it a fantasy, which inherently has more robust worldbuilding, but that's where you really shine because the world is what you know and you have just put magical boosters on it.
Marisa Churchill (17:32):
Exactly. You said it perfectly. Really for me, I did. I spent over a decade in my career working in fine dining in San Francisco. So aside from Top Chef and Food Network experiences, that's a lot of lived time in and out of the restaurant day after day after day, and also culinary school. And so I really tapped into all of that. There are so many moments that came up in my mind. Sometimes I felt like writing was almost like a therapy session where I'll bring in certain things or remember certain things and disappointment when certain things happen during a competition. But also kind of the comradery, the fun experience of culinary school. A lot of the characters are actually inspired by chefs who I actually know.
Mary Kole (18:23):
Are you nervous? Are your friends going to text you and be like, Ooh, am I this one or am I this one?
Marisa Churchill (18:30):
Well, for me it's been nice in a couple of different ways. It's funny because I don't know if you know Hubert Keller?
Mary Kole (18:37):
No, I can't say I do.
Marisa Churchill (18:39):
So he had Fleur de Lys in San Francisco, which won a Michelin star.
Mary Kole (18:43):
Oh, that I do know. Yeah. Yeah.
Marisa Churchill (18:44):
I won't say who he is because it will give some of the plot away. Perfect. But yes, he inspired one of the characters. So did Dominique Kren. And then there are people that I just remember from culinary school, like Big Sean, Maggie Long, who has a minor role in book one, but a major role in book two was actually one of my closest friends. We were culinary school together. We were roommates for a long time, and sadly she passed away at 39 from stomach cancer. So this was also a really cool way for me. I wanted to highlight the diversity also in the food world. And I was writing this Asian character. It was Maggie. And so I reached out to her sister and her husband and I said, I don't want to just create a character based on, I want to make it Maggie. I think she would've loved that. And her sister said, yeah, I think you're right. Go for it. So it's been a very, very gratifying experience writing this book and inviting people into this world that tortures me at times, but I know it so well, and I love it so much.
Mary Kole (19:53):
I love that. And I'm not trying to self insert, but I've been for the last 10 days, dealing with something horrific over on my end. And so I've been telling some clients, and it was the Annunciation Church and School shooting here in Minneapolis, and I've been talking to people and I actually just got an email this morning that said from a client that said basically the painful stuff and the most emotional stuff and the most kind of stuff that you have the most personal connection to is where some of the best writing comes from.
Marisa Churchill (20:29):
Yeah, no, that's true. It really is. And as you know, I've been working at this for a while. This isn't the first book that I have written, but what really changed for me with this one and really kind of helped me find my footing, I think was because I was writing about something that I knew so well that I had so many lived experiences with some of them being great, some of them, like you said, being painful or sad and you have so much material that you could dip into there. I feel like it's really helped me evolve as a writer.
Mary Kole (21:03):
That's amazing. So let's get back to marketing this thing. So we're coming out in December.
Marisa Churchill (21:09):
Yes, December 9th. But you can pre-order now.
Mary Kole (21:13):
And you might even get a seasonal treat.
Marisa Churchill (21:16):
Yes, you might. We're doing all sorts of giveaways. So you can follow @chef_marisachurchill and find out about some of those giveaways are. How am I doing for marketing? Is this working? This is not, by the way, how you do it for cookbooks. So I am a fish out of water, but I'm trying my best.
Mary Kole (21:35):
That is something that a lot of writers, especially a self-confessed introvert like a lot of writers are, they really struggle with it because all of a sudden—so in a restaurant there are different people who own different tasks and this kind of simplifies because when you're in the weeds, everybody kind of chips in. But in a French kitchen, you have these very strictly defined roles. The executive chef, the sous chef, chef de partee, pastry chef, all of this stuff, the sommelier, the general manager, the barback, the bartender, all of these people, servers, and they each specialize in an area of the job. But when we come in and decide that we want to be a published writer, a published author, we have to take on all of the jobs. That is an unfortunate reality of the publishing industry as it is right now. But you're not just Writer anymore. You're not just idea person in the room of one zone, a typing away. You have to become a social media manager.
You have to make graphic assets. So when you want to replace the cupcakes with the skulls, unless you have the bandwidth and the finances to hire somebody or hire these roles out, you become marketer. You become PR. And it's a lot to ask of one person because you're kind of, and this is not to disparage any publishers, but there really has been an expectation shift that authors shoulder a lot of this with support from their publisher. For example, this was sent to me by your publisher at your request. So they are happy to do whatever they can and then support you in doing whatever you can. But all of those roles kind of fall on your shoulders.
Marisa Churchill (23:30):
Yes. I mean, they weren't going to reach out to Mary Kole on my behalf and say, would you please do an interview with Marisa Churchill? So I've had my lists and my spreadsheets, and I've been reaching out to everybody I know, everybody I don't know. That's kind of also been another learning curve for me where with the cookbooks, I've had no problem reaching out to people I knew, but I didn't want to bother people I did not know. I didn't want to bother chefs or … here I'm bothering everybody. Oh yes. I mean, I'm stalking writers trying to find email addresses.
Mary Kole (24:09):
Bother away. In a wonderful way.
Marisa Churchill (24:11):
That's right. I have not had any restraining orders filed against me yet. Not yet. That’s where the little treats come in.
Mary Kole (24:20):
Think that you could get very far with some chocolate.
Marisa Churchill (24:22):
Yeah, you know what? Especially when it's good quality chocolate, I'm telling you. Yeah. So you really are, you're having to shoulder so much. Now, you don't have to, I mean, I could not do all of this and just say, alright, let's see what happens. I'll do a few local book events and hopefully word of mouth will spread. But I feel like there's so much out there that if you really want to have a shot at standing out, you got to make some noise.
Mary Kole (24:57):
Yeah. And you have also been working on book two along parallel lines. So how have you and you have children and a life.
Marisa Churchill (25:06):
I don't have a life. That's where you're mistaken. I no longer have a life.
Mary Kole (25:11):
Fake news. She has no life. So how have you been juggling? Because these are very different skill sets, which is the pain point. Writers come into it with one skillset, and then they are asked to develop all of these others almost out of whole cloth and reinvent the wheel for themselves and figure out how to market, make all of these connections outside of what the publisher is willing to do for ARC mailings and stuff. So that's a very different type of skill and it may not come naturally to some writers. And so how have you managed the kind of creative generative energy that is so sacred when you're writing and thinking of ideas and doing all of the work that brought you to publishing in the first place, while also juggling these other responsibilities that you said you've given them to yourself? This is homework that you have taken on, but I completely agree with you that let's put it out into the world and see what happens is not really a winning strategy.
Marisa Churchill (26:18):
Yeah, no, it isn't. I mean, it has been challenging and overwhelming at times. That's part of why I've been getting up a lot of times—well, not even, it's not the crack of dawn, 2:30, 3:30, it's still the middle of the night, unfortunately. That's also when my creative mind works really well. I don't have emails coming in. People aren't coming in and out. I can kind of be in my world. So as I was trying to wrap up book two, I would write often in this room in the dark at that time. I'm not sure if that's the best for my eyes or my back, but that's how I did it. And then I would dedicate most of the day to marketing for book one. And then in the evening time, I would force myself—sometimes I'd take the phone, I would put it in the other room so that I could spend some time with my girls uninterrupted because I knew if an email or a request started coming in, I would be focused on that.
Mary Kole (27:22):
I'm assuming sleep entered the picture sometimes in some way?
Marisa Churchill (27:27):
So basically after a few days of that, I would then become so exhausted that I would probably collapse at around nine o'clock at night with my kids. And then I would start the whole process over again in the next, a day or two later after my body got enough energy and rest that I could just start the whole process again. But one of the things I would also say is don't be afraid to ask for help. Well, I've shouldered a lot of this. I have had help, and sometimes that's just been in the sense of reaching out to another author or reaching out to my agent to get some advice on something. I've reached out to you and asked questions. Yes. I feel like especially in the world of books, people are very generous. They're willing to talk to you, they're willing to give you advice, and that advice can be really helpful because maybe you are heading down one row thinking you need to do one thing for marketing, and then somebody else tells you, no, no, no, you need to do X, Y, and Z. Okay, well great. Good thing then you asked the question, rather than expending all the energy doing that only to discover that maybe that wasn't the best use of your time.
Mary Kole (28:41):
Well, I think it's wonderful that you're being so intentional about it and you are trying to conserve your energy and spend it where it'll be most impactful. And it sounds like it's been a process of trial and error figuring that out, because every author that you see, who is maybe a few books ahead of you, has had to, I keep calling it like reinventing the wheel. They've all done it, but unless you're in touch with them and you talk strategy with them, people are just siloed.
Marisa Churchill (29:13):
No, it's true. And one of the things that surprised me the most was the aspect of school visits. The publisher doesn't really get involved in that. They don't even really know a lot about it. They suggest that you reach out to your agent or to a bookstore. So in my case, my agent was able to connect me with another client of hers who a ton of school visits. And that was so informative for me because I was thinking that I needed to do all sorts of things that I really didn't need to do. And you said, no, look, you need to just go directly to the schools you don't need. There are pluses to partnering with bookstores, and you can do that sometimes, but there are minuses to that as well. And he was very generous with his time and gave me a bunch of information. But there are so many different aspects, like you said, that you don't even think about and school visits are one of them.
Mary Kole (30:14):
Because when you do a school visit, do you send home flyers to the families and run pre-orders? Do you have books available at the event? Who's going to do the bulk order? Who is going to sell the books at the event? All of—it's just, you don't know what you don't know. And unfortunately, there's not a centralized bulletin.
Marisa Churchill (30:35):
No. And it's still not easy. I mean, ironically, this conversation reminded me, I need to do a follow up with my daughter's school just because I'm a library volunteer and my kid goes to your school, don't think it's made it any easier for me to set up that author visit. So there's a lot of work. So I would say if you are on that road, just be prepared for that and know that that is something that you will need to tackle. Because as you said, just doing the writing, just focusing on the craft isn't enough.
Mary Kole (31:12):
Not anymore. We used to have this beautiful system where the genius just sits at their typewriter and their editor is coming over there with snacks to help extract the work, and then the publisher runs with it. But there's so much noise now including from the media, social media, streaming. You're not just fighting with other books for eyeballs. You are fighting with every other source of escapism, entertainment, whatever it is. And you have contributed to that problem by being a TV person also.
Marisa Churchill (31:50):
OK but the social media really, I mean, the social media is really challenging because on one hand you need to use it to promote your work. But on the other hand, study after study shows that kids are reading fewer books because they're busy on their phones. So we're trying to market our books to them, but at the same time, we are distracting them from reading our books. So.
Mary Kole (32:14):
You know what, I am working on gun violence and school shootings, and I'm also involved in a climate change podcast right now. And I think those are my two causes for the moment. Though literacy should be up there, but.
Marisa Churchill (32:31):
Yours are more important because they're going to be more impactful to survival. So yes.
Mary Kole (32:43):
You can't read if the world has ended. No, and I'm not trying to make this a political or very topical conversation, but you're right, literacy rates are at the lowest they have been. We're still dealing, especially in the children's book space with downstream effects from COVID and kind of the lack of support that children have had around their educations. And this is not to call anybody out. Everybody's been doing the best that they can with the situation at hand, but those effects are still being felt.
Marisa Churchill (33:17):
Yeah, no, it's true. It's true. And so it is a challenging time, but hopefully if a kid has a book that intrigues them because they like to bake or because they watch cooking shows, hopefully it will also get them reading more. And that's another benefit of being a writer. You get to kind of have that impact on somebody else's life. Because I remember vividly the books that I read and fell in love with as a child. So my hope is that somebody can fall in love with my book.
Mary Kole (33:54):
And I think that's what has drawn a lot of people into the children's book space specifically because it is such a dynamic time in the formation of a person's identity, sense of self, all of that. And I am going to go ahead and guess that maybe four or five years from now, there is going to be a kid showing up to the CIA or wherever and not the CIA, the Culinary Institute of America, and saying, I read this book and it lit a fire under me to go to cooking school.
Marisa Churchill (34:30):
And by the way, do you have magical recipes here? Because that’s what I wanna sign up for.
Mary Kole (34:37):
Is there a secret door in the back for the magic part of the school? Just asking.
Marisa Churchill (34:45):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I thought we were talking literally about my book, but you're talking about the CIA, yeah. I’m ready to go explore that. Has been banned from the CIA after she was found—I was just looking for the secret magic group!
Mary Kole (35:10):
But honestly, that is one of the gifts of fantasy, especially as well, because one of the things that I've also noticed in the market is that kids and grownups, let's not generalize, are looking for escape. They're looking for something to take their minds off. They're looking to sink into a robust world. And yours is just so rich, as we talked about because of your lived experience. It's so textured. So there's so many details there for people to really sink their teeth into. I'll never give up opportunity for wordplay. I'm sorry.
Marisa Churchill (35:48):
No, I love it. I'm right there with you. No, it really is. And I think that that's part of why it's easy to fall into that world because I take so much of it from real life and we've all dined in a restaurant or watched a cooking competition, not all, but most of us. So there's so much there to relate to, even if you haven't been a chef or been part of the culinary world yourself.
Mary Kole (36:13):
So we have books one and two.
Marisa Churchill (36:17):
Just book one. Hopefully two. Hopefully two. I mean, the publisher has first rights to it, but this is where the marketing component comes in.
Mary Kole (36:27):
Yes. So if you are a member of my Thriving Writers community, I do have a course there with my business partner and friend John Cusick, an agent at Folio Literary that talks all about option books. And when getting an option book through happens at the most optimal time and early orders for book one. So you're trying to shop book two and can they make an offer on it? Yeah, all of this stuff we do dive into. I'm not trying to make a pitch, but you are literally in that space today.
Marisa Churchill (37:05):
Yes, I am. I am. And you should make that pitch because like I said, I don't think I would be here without you. And even I'm seeing Writing Irresistible Kidlit back there and yes. And when I was going through the edits, I was reading that book and part of reading that book made me think I have to rework the opening scene. I have to rework those first few sentences.
Mary Kole (37:26):
Opening scenes are really tough, which is why your girl also has Writing Irresistible First Pages.
Marisa Churchill (37:34):
Yes, I forgot.
Mary Kole (37:36):
But no, it's all hard. And this is why I keep creating resources and having conversations like this one because I think the desire to learn, even when it's overwhelming, even when it's hard, even when you don't know what you're doing, that's something that you've really exemplified as an author. And I think that is one of the most crucial components that separates the people who just have a dream of publishing and those who actually end up publishing and being successful in that endeavor. Because there's so much to learn.
Marisa Churchill (38:12):
There is. There is so much to learn, and I love learning it. And you should never say you've done learning with anything. Because I would say when you're looking at baking pastry, I don't know everything there is to know. There are so many different cuisines out there. And the same can be said of writing. So I am still part of still enjoying this learning process, and I am still just in it for the ride and we'll see where it takes me.
Mary Kole (38:39):
Book two aside, which is a sequel happens in this world. Do you have any next steps for your fiction career?
Marisa Churchill (38:49):
Well, I do because I've already written the first chapter for book three. I mean, the culinary world is so rich. I mean there's so much to, again, now I'm going to use the sink your teeth into, but there really is.
Mary Kole (39:04):
My passion for wordplay is infectious, whether you want that infection or not.
Marisa Churchill (39:11):
That's okay. We're talking about marketing. So I have a collab coming up with Wilton. If people don't know Wilton Cake company, it's a big cake company. And so I said to him, I said, why don't we build a vertical book cake because let's just make it extra hard. And that was actually the tagline that I used in the video, which will be coming out this week saying, there you go, a cake really worth sinking your teeth into.
Mary Kole (39:34):
Amazing. And I love that. “Why not make it extra hard?” That just really breaks you down as a person because it's like, sure, we could take it easy, but no, let's wake up at 2:30. And just before you guys feel too bad for Marisa for waking up in the middle of the night, pastry chefs and bakers have weird hours because you got to proof the bread, you got to feed the starter, you got to put something in so it's ready X amount of time later. So.
Marisa Churchill (40:08):
That is true. Although I was in fine dining, so I was in restaurants, so I had the late night hours, but I was never a late night girl. So the early mornings, those 2:30, 3:30, they do actually work better for me. But I just preferred the more hustle bustle of restaurants versus bakery because it's a much more calm environment in a bakery. There's a lot of adrenaline and heat pumping through a restaurant kitchen at night.
Mary Kole (40:34):
Says the introvert. I didn't mean to turn this into a psychological study.
Marisa Churchill (40:42):
People are going to see this. They're going to see me laughing. This girl doesn't know what she's talking about. She's not an introvert. But really I am.
Mary Kole (40:51):
A lot of people who have public facing personas, they need to recharge their batteries. So I completely get it. You listen to me talk at a conference and you're like, wow, she has energy. And then I get to the hotel after and I just lie face down on the floor for two hours.
Marisa Churchill (41:08):
Yes, exactly. So if I ever get to be here you at a conference again, because that happened one time and she was amazing and everybody was talking about how hilarious you were, how much they learn. But if afterwards, Mary, you want to go out? No, no, no. I'm busy. She's curled up in her hotel room. I understand. Maybe I'll go and do the same.
Mary Kole (41:27):
We did meet up and it was the start of a beautiful friendship.
Marisa Churchill (41:31):
Oh, thank you. Yes, I've enjoyed it. I can't get you to move any closer, but.
Mary Kole (41:38):
I'm from the Bay Area and I do have an open offer to hang out and stay whenever I want, which I love. But yeah, is there anything that you would like somebody who is looking at you with admiration and aspiration, anything else that you really want them to know?
Marisa Churchill (42:02):
I'll say one thing, and it's funny because I'm about to give some advice that I don't really take myself, but focus on your work. Focus on your craft. Don't worry so much about your background because I know that it's something that I do all the time. I look at these successful writers that have MFAs and yes, they at least studied literature in some form in college, and I study cakes and pie making. So can I really do this? Can I really do this? And I'm still asking myself that all the time, but try not to. It's something that I tell myself to just focus on you and always keep an open mind to feedback from people you trust because that feedback is, like you said, it's coming from a place of love and it is meant to make you grow as a writer and become better. And that's ultimately what you should want is to just put out the best possible work that you can.
Mary Kole (43:04):
That was beautiful. Well, Marisa Churchill, thank you for that. You are an author. You are doing it.
Marisa Churchill (43:11):
Oh my god. I know I have it right here. I just kind of look at it sometimes.
Mary Kole (43:16):
So pretty, even in the middle of the night or by the skin of your teeth, you are doing it. And I think you are just an inspiration and I'm so proud of you.
Marisa Churchill (43:29):
Thank you. Thank you. I couldn't have done it without you. Truly. You stop it. No, really. She's amazing. She's amazing.
Mary Kole (43:38):
Well, right back at you. So where can people find you? You did mention your social handle, but maybe let's consolidate everything for our listeners.
Marisa Churchill (43:49):
Perfect. So yes, my website is marisachurchill.com. That's Marisa with one s and Churchill, just like Winston. On Instagram, it is @chef_marisachurchill. And you will find recipes there and mayhem and link orders to pre-order my book.
Mary Kole (44:11):
Get yourself some treats lovingly made for these pre-order bonuses.
Marisa Churchill (44:17):
Exactly. There you go. These could be yours for Halloween. Tricks and Treats.
Mary Kole (44:24):
You're the best. Everybody pick up a pre-order or when it is available on December 9th. Secrets, Spells, and Chocolate. And thank you for everything that you have shared.
Marisa Churchill (44:36):
Thank you so much for having me on. Bye.
Mary Kole (44:38):
Of course. This has been the Thriving Writers Podcast. My name is Mary Kole and my beautiful friend Marisa Churchill.
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