Episode 49: Gloria Chao, Author & Screenwriter
Author Gloria Chao guides us through her unique journey from dentistry to writing! We also chat about her upcoming adult debut, The Ex-Girlfriend Murder Club. Listen to our conversation for fun insights on puzzles, coming-of-age YA stories, and learning there’s no “right” way to write.
TRANSCRIPT FOR EPISODE 49 with Gloria Chao:
00:01.31 Mary Kole
Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Mary Kole. This is the Thriving Writers Podcast. And with me, I have Gloria Chao.
00:09.98 Gloria Chao
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
00:13.42 Mary Kole
Thank you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? You are an author and you are making pivots in your career, which I love. I love talking to people who are sort of growing in new categories. But before all that, take it away.
00:27.95 Gloria Chao
Yeah, so I'm so excited to be here. I have five published young adult novels out, and the pivot that you were mentioning is that I have my first adult murder mystery coming out in June, and it's going to be a series. We just announced the sequel, so I'm very excited to be doing both, and there's a lot of similarities in both, even though it's a new age category, new genre, but I like to write humorous characters who get up, you know, into shenanigans. And I like to write about romance. So there's a little bit of romance in the mystery as well. In Young Adult, I focus a lot on the romance. And I also like to write about humorous families and and cultural differences. And so all of those will be throughout all of my novels.
01:10.21 Mary Kole
That's great. So how long have you been publishing? Let's go in the time machine and catch us up to these, you know, many, many novels that you've already released.
01:21.05 Gloria Chao
So my debut novel, American Panda, came out in 2018. And then number six and seven are going to be this year and next year. So I've been lucky to be able to keep publishing. And it's been an amazing ride up until now.
01:37.36 Mary Kole
Up until now, that sounds kind of ominous.
01:39.74 Gloria Chao
And continuing! I didn't mean it to.
01:43.73 Mary Kole
But so you were not always a writer. You didn't emerge—maybe your soul emerged as a writer, but for a while you told me when we were just chatting that you worked as a dentist.
01:57.27 Gloria Chao
Yeah, I did. So when I was in dental school, I was pretty miserable. It was very tough. I didn't love the work. And the only thing that got me through the day was reading. And that's when I really fell back in love with books. There was a big stretch there where I just didn't have time for reading. I forgot how much I loved it. And then that was when I fell in love with young adult books in particular as well. And I began reading a lot and eventually I began writing. And at first it was just for myself. And then American Panda really ended up being my most autobiographical book where it's about a girl who is a freshman at MIT, which is also where I went to college. And her parents wanted her to become a doctor, but she hates germs. And that was my experience in dental school. The funny part is I discovered that in dental school, I still remember vividly there was a day where the entire topic for the entire day was infection control. And they spent the whole day telling us how many germs are everywhere. And it just completely changed my perspective. And I mean, dentistry, you get, you know, people’s spit and blood and pus in your hair. And I just realized it affected me so much more than my classmates and it was just a very tough fit for me.
03:12.45 Mary Kole
And you were already in the shoot. I mean, I would imagine that a lot of your education was aiming in that direction. It's not it's not like an elective where you're like, ooh, nevermind.
03:23.84 Gloria Chao
Right. I wish it was. That would’ve made it easier. Although sometimes I think maybe I wouldn't have found my way to writing without it, but that all could also just be cognitive dissonance where I'm trying to convince myself, you know, it was worth something.
03:36.96 Mary Kole
You're like all those thousands of dollars spent on this like top-notch education.
03:37.70 Gloria Chao
Yes. Yes.
03:46.26 Mary Kole
So you came into it through reading and were immediately drawn to young adult. And, you know, I have my pet theories. But what do you think it was about teen literature that—you were kind of new adult aged at this point?
04:03.51 Gloria Chao
Yes.
04:03.76 Mary Kole
So you weren't far outside of YA yourself. What do you think drew you to that age category?
04:11.31 Gloria Chao
For reading, definitely. I just felt like young adult was doing something that other categories weren't. They were exploring topics that adult wasn't. And it was just so fast paced. You just fell right into the story. And I just love that. It was my favorite thing to read. The funny thing is when I was writing American Panda, I actually had a very hard time figuring out the age category for it. I knew that the character should be in college because high school was too young to be that concerned about your career. It wasn't right around the corner. And so it just didn't make sense for the book I wanted to write. But at that time, it was about 2016 when I was querying and trying to get an agent. And there just weren't YA books that ended—they all ended in high school. So there were very few college books out. And so that made it very difficult. And I rewrote the book three times in three different age categories because I couldn't figure out how to make it work.
And all the rejections I was getting from agents were saying, I don't know where this fits. You know, adult women's fiction, that's much older and then young adult, we just can't make this work. And then new adult was kind of new, but then that kind of became something else in its entirety. And this just didn't fit. And it wasn't until my third rewrite, where I made her a freshman, but she was 17, that agents were open to that. But even when we went out on submission, there were editors saying, we just don't know how to market this. And I was lucky enough to find my editor who was willing to champion and she was like I understand why you put it here. Let's give it a go. But it was such a brand new thing for them, which is funny because now I feel like there's an opposite. They're really pushing for that that upper boundary, whereas back then it was just not done.
06:00.40 Mary Kole
This really does take me back because I've had the pleasure of kicking around this industry for a while, since about 2009. And so I saw the rise of the original New Adult, right? And I was in some of those conversations with editors where it was like, no, it's high school only. And I mean, to this day... children's books, and YA is technically a children's book category, they are very regimented in terms of word count, in terms of protagonist age, but also in terms of those more ephemeral qualities is such as voice and content, right? Because a high school freshman's life is worlds different from a college freshman's life, just in terms of frame of reference and identity and life experience and kind of available things that are going to be happening and even ability to be proactive in their own life, right? So it's not just the protagonist's age, right? But it sounds like you got around it. You got around it by having her maybe graduate high school early, your protagonist, so that you could put her in that. Because you're right. High school kids, most of them aren't as concerned about their careers. So that's one of the ephemeral kind of content bits.
You had to have your character more serious, more engaged with these bigger questions, but to thread that YA needle, at least at the time, you had to make her under 18. And now, to your point, the industry is changing again. I feel like YA is almost splitting into two camps. One with the where's the lighter YA that's not so much concerned with content? And one camp with the darker, steamier romance. This is also the camp that the 30-something moms are also reading, you know?
07:56.70 Gloria Chao
Yes, I agree.
08:04.53 Mary Kole
So and then New Adult Now is what Chicklit was in the 90s, I feel like.
08:11.32 Gloria Chao
Yes. And the interesting part with American Panda was I always felt like it very squarely belonged in young adult because of the heart of it. And I understand that it is a different setting. But for me, I felt like that coming-of-age moment that was in so many young adult books came later for me because I did feel like I was a little bit more sheltered and it wasn't until reached college that I really had that eye opening experience that is featured so prominently. And so for me it just made sense I was like of course this character with a similar background to me has to have her coming of age moment later and there just wasn't space for that at the time and my editor understood that and she said you know of course she has to be in college for this that makes sense. And so making her 17 almost played into that more so that helps but it was this interesting space that just hadn't been explored quite yet
09:05.94 Mary Kole
And I think that's really valuable because there are kids who have been either through their own initiative or through family pressure, cultural pressure, kind of put blinders on. Weren't maybe allowed to have the traditional childhood, the traditional adolescence, and where are the books for the people who hit college, like a bat out of hell, they don't know which way is up, because they have never had freedom, they have never been able to make their own choices necessarily, to such a degree, right? And there are absolutely readers that would identify with that experience as well.
09:46.52 Gloria Chao
Exactly. And that's why we need so much, so many more books, and we need a broader experience. And I mean, that's been one of the best parts about doing this is hearing from readers who related to parts of the book, because there is no universal experience. And so we need more and more books to try to capture different pieces of them.
10:05.51 Mary Kole
And so I am hearing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that American Panda was the first book that you tried to write and you ended up taking it all the way across the finish line to publication?
10:18.80 Gloria Chao
I wrote another manuscript that is in the drawer. It actually was speculative. So when I fell in love with young adult, I was reading a lot of fantasy.
10:26.70 Mary Kole
Mm-hmm.
10:26.74 Gloria Chao
And so my first book tended that way. But then because of what I was experiencing at the time when I was changing careers, I was going through a really difficult situation. And that was why I wanted to write American Panda. So I shifted gears and I focused on that. And I think that was just my most passionate project and so it made sense to try to start with that one.
10:48.36 Mary Kole
That's really interesting. Are you going to dust off the drawer manuscript and go full romantasy on us?
10:54.82 Gloria Chao
I don't think I'm going to dust off the drawer manuscript, but I would love to pivot again in the future because I still do love reading and hopefully writing in the future, you know, speculative or romantasy or one of those.
11:08.05 Mary Kole
Well, it seems like reading was a real safe harbor for you. And by extension, writing became a safe harbor for you so that you would play in maybe a more fantasy or speculative framework just makes sense for how you maybe interface with reading and writing just in the broadest possible terms.
11:27.54 Gloria Chao
Yeah, so when I come up with a book idea, I don't really think about age category or genre. I try to just think of something really fun that I want to explore, which is how The Ex-Girlfriend Murder Club, the one that's coming out in June, came about, which surprised me because I hadn't... I love reading mystery, but I hadn't really thought about writing one before. But then this idea just popped into my head when I was brainstorming about these three girls who discovered they're dating the same guy, and then they band together to get revenge. And in my head, I remember thinking, how do I up the stakes? And then I was like, what if he dies? And as soon as I thought of that, I was like, this, I want to see where this goes. I was like, of course, they're going to be, they're going to look the most suspicious.
12:08.61 Mary Kole
Yes.
12:09.31 Gloria Chao
They have motive.
12:09.87 Mary Kole
Perfect.
12:10.51 Gloria Chao
They just covered his apartment and all their DNA because they were pranking him. And so, of course, they have to solve the murder before they go down for it. And that was one of those ideas that once it hit, it didn't let me go and I was like, I have to write this. And then when I thought about it, I was like, adult makes more sense. They have to be older. These relationships are more serious. And so it was just very natural for me. So I start with the idea and then I kind of figure out where it fits in.
12:35.45 Mary Kole
So I did prepare you for this ahead of time that I would be asking this question because a lot of writers do have questions about what this means, but it sounds like this is a very high concept idea, right? You said, I just understood it immediately. It didn't let me go. It just grabbed onto me. I really wanted to know what happens, right? And those are some of the things that we say when we talk about the term high concept, which is more of a marketing term, right? Sometimes it can be applied retroactively to an idea. What does it mean for you?
13:12.53 Gloria Chao
I remember starting out and seeing that term everywhere and being like, what is this? What does it mean? So I completely understand the difficulty of grasping it. For me, it clicked a little bit more with my third book, Rent a Boyfriend. So that book is about a real practice that happens in a lot of Asian countries where people feel so much pressure to bring home the perfect significant other to introduce to their family, that they will hire an actor to come and pretend to be the person that their family would approve of.
And when I learned about this, my first thought was actually... I get it. like see why that would be easier. And realizing, you know, that's probably not what everybody would think. And so I really wanted to write a book about it. I brought the practice here. I set it in a small Asian-American community. And I thought what would happen if she got to know the real guy behind the role and fell for him. And so, you know, she's just introduced him to her parents as an aspiring surgeon and she's falling for the real guy who's a fake boyfriend who is an aspiring artist. And so obviously her life gets very complicated. And that was a book where... I could explain it in one sentence, you know, girl hired fake boyfriend based on a real practice.
And even the title, Rent a Boyfriend tells you what it's about. You know, it's a romance, you know, it's a fake boyfriend situation. And talking about that book, in events and just you know with people that I met was completely different it was just you know you say the one sentence you say that elevator pitch and they got it and that was when I was like this is what the high concept means and moving forward from there it did influence how I brainstorm my projects. I do try to come up with that one or two sentence pitch. I like to have a title that really captures the tone and what the book is about.
15:10.75 Mary Kole
Yeah.
15:12.31 Gloria Chao
And I think it just helps in terms of you promoting the book, also you telling the publisher what it's about, and just you telling the readers. And I think when readers pick that book off the shelf, they know immediately, and it does make a difference. And it also just makes it easier to write that book. Once you have that tone and and what it's about, it just focuses it from the start. And so I now try to really start from that point.
15:36.36 Mary Kole
So a couple different things, and I think this is this is so great that you lived it right? You lived the difference. You could feel the difference between, well, it's a coming of age story about this precocious girl, you know, and then you kind of go for a while and and eventually you describe what American Panda is. That's not to say it's any less worthwhile or any less valuable. Right?
But the Rent a Boyfriend and I especially love the marriage of a fake dating trope, right. This is a known entity in the romantic comedy space with this cultural practice where you take a slightly different and more specific angle at just your typical fake dating. And sometimes doing a spin on the familiar is one way to get, you know, go about doing a high concept premise.
16:34.60 Gloria Chao
Yes, I totally agree. And I especially learned that with my second book where I felt I feel like the title is the least clear on what the book is about. And I just felt that difference after. And so now I don't even like to write until I have the perfect title, which probably is … I don't have to go that far. But now I just I really like to have everything kind of ready before I even start writing.
16:57.73 Mary Kole
And we were talking about your upcoming June release, your first adult project. And I asked, oh, so is it like a Finlay Donovan, which is an established series that has this kind of not slapsticky, but shenanigans, a cozy, kind of more lighthearted vibe for a murder mystery, right? As opposed to something very serious, something noir, right? And so I feel like some writers hate the idea of comps. Because, you know, first of all, on the one hand, I don't want it to seem like my idea is derivative of anything, right?
On the other hand, it's like, well, how do I encapsulate and da-da-da-da-da? And if I compare myself to somebody else, will that make me look worse? People just get very in their heads about comps. But to your point about a high concept premise statement being useful to the author, but also to the acquisition stage with the publisher, to the marketing stage, not just the publishers, marketing people, pitching the project to their customers, but you pitching the project to your readers. Comps are just another tool for conveying information maybe tone, it's a lighthearted murder mystery, right? There are shenanigans. That's what Finlay Donovan says to me. And looking at your cover, looking at the cover copy and all of the marketing materials that exist for your adult release that came through for me very, very clearly. And so I think that people get in their heads about high concept, but also comp titles.
18:42.25 Gloria Chao
I understand that. I remember feeling very stressed about comps when I was querying. Part of the problem was there just weren't that many books that were similar back then. I mean, I couldn't find any other books to use. And I think that's part of it is it's just hard sometimes if you have something that's a little bit different. I think it's also hard if you just don't even know where to look for the comps. I think being in the industry makes it easier. You see the releases that are coming out. You're just more familiar with what's big and and what's out there and you know where to look. And so I think that's a problem that does get a little easier once you're a little bit more in the industry.
But being both in publishing and also I'm a screenwriter and so Hollywood also loves comps and I see the value in them because it is a very shorthand way that you can convey your book. And I think the way to get away from feeling like you're being derivative or taking something from books is it's never going to be exactly the same, right?
19:41.32 Mary Kole
Yep.
19:41.47 Gloria Chao
But you can specify what it is similar about it. So like for The Ex-Girlfriend Murder Club, I think of it as is being similar to the Only Murders in the Building show in terms of the friendship that you have between the the three main characters and the the type of humor there is.
But then I love using Finlay Donovan as a comp because it's exactly what you said. It has that same shenanigans and feeling of adventure and lighthearted tone. I also love using the comp Vera Wong's Unsolicited Advice for Murderers as a comp. I love that one. And so I aim to have the same humor as that as well in this shenanigans. And so I think it's just a way to quickly tell people and also to have fans of those books think, oh, maybe I'll like this, which is true because as a reader that helps when I see a book that mentions something that I liked about it about one of the books I read I'm like, oh I want to pick this up and see if it's similar and I think it's just a nice way to both tell readers and marketing you know how it where exactly your book can fit in.
20:48.14 Mary Kole
I really like the Only Murders in the Building because I think that they were thrown together, right? And just like these ex-girlfriends who never would have ordinarily probably hung out, who hated one another, in fact, at the beginning.
20:54.22 Gloria Chao
And they have very different personalities. And so it's this very interesting dynamic that forms, but they're so bonded by this terrible thing that's happened. And the heart of the story really is about this this beautiful friendship that forms between the three of them.
21:17.63 Mary Kole
I mean, the the connection that grows from an alleged murder is, you know, pretty tough to shake.
21:27.42 Gloria Chao
Yes, yes.
21:28.58 Mary Kole
And so this is a series idea?
21:31.31 Gloria Chao
It is. So the second book's going to come out June 2026. So the idea is that there is another murder. So in the first book, the girls have a—they make an enemy. And then the second book, that enemy comes back looking for their help because they become accused of murder. So it's this funny idea that now, you know, the person who was their adversary in the first book is now coming to them for help.
21:58.37 Mary Kole
Because I was going to say, you can only be thrown together, kind of fish out of water, odd friendship once, right? And then where do you take it? But I love pulling through somebody who made made a cameo in the first book into bigger role in the second installment.
22:15.58 Gloria Chao
Yeah.
22:16.01 Mary Kole
That sounds really fun.
22:17.31 Gloria Chao
And it's fun because you get to develop the characters more. So I'm deepening the friendship and you get to know the main character's parents a little bit in the first one and they have some very humorous scenes. And so I'm glad I'll be able to to include them even more in the second one.
22:34.41 Mary Kole
So this is an interesting question about kind of women's fiction and because in YA, the character development, the character arcs are pretty profound. You are meeting a character who is very much still in flux and will continue to be in flux for many, many years. Let's face it.
With a series, especially with an adult character, the changes that the characters go through are maybe more incremental or they feel less life-changingly profound, right? Especially since this is not like a literary character portfolio where it is all about the character's kind of deep experience. This is an internal journey, but also largely an external journey. Was it different to write a character arc for adults and then a character arc across multiple installments?
23:28.90 Gloria Chao
That's a really great question. Surprisingly, the adult and young adult difference was not as big as I would have guessed. I explore similar themes. I mean, you are coming of age all the time, right? You're struggling with different things at all different points in our lives. It's just young adult feels a little bit more profound because you're kind of seeing the world for the first time with new eyes. But you can have that at different points in your life as well, including when you thought you were in love with this guy who treated you very well. And I mean, there's a reason these girls were with him. And then you suddenly see this other side of him and you think about how that would turn your world upside down and and how you have to almost reshape everything you thought you knew when you're questioning who you trust. And you're even questioning, can I trust these, you know, like the new people? And how do I solve this murder? How do I trust anyone who's coming into my life?
And so the main characters go on this huge journey as well that in some ways feels even bigger. It's just different at different points in in our lives. And so I'm still exploring similar themes. I'm still exploring, you know, trying to figure out out your career, which in some ways the stakes feel higher now, right? They're already in it. They have to make money.
And also with family, there are there are struggles. The mom in this book was very fun to write. So she sends the main character all these ridiculous things because she's single. You know she'll send, um you know she sends a step stool because she's like, you don't have a man to reach up high for you. And a George Foreman grill because there's no man to grill for you. And she even sends her a Life Alert because she's like, you're single. What if you fall down and you can't get up? And so she has to deal with it.
25:06.31 Mary Kole
Mom!
25:08.22 Gloria Chao
She has to deal with how do I communicate with my mom, which is very similar to the other books. It's just you're at a different point in your life. They don't like her career, which, again, in some ways, that feels like higher stakes. The sequel part was a little bit harder where when I was brainstorming it, I was like, I need to have a whole new arc for this character to go on. And so that did take some figuring out. But you also laid a lot of groundwork in the first book, right?
25:34.59 Mary Kole
Mm-hmm.
25:35.18 Gloria Chao
And so it's more about figuring out where does she go from here? And obviously, she's still struggling a lot with this relationship that turned her world upside down. She's dating someone new. And so there are a lot of things that come up.
25:47.44 Mary Kole
Okay, that's good.
25:49.54 Gloria Chao
So there are there is plenty of things to work with. It's just, it was very different having to work within the parameters of something already established.
25:59.51 Mary Kole
One thing you brought up I really cannot emphasize enough, which is that even if a relationship in a story is headed for a breakup, what makes us fall in love with that relationship, right? Because you, the writer, know that the relationship is headed for a breakup. But readers, I have to keep pushing my editorial clients to make the relationship something that the character would have gotten into and enjoyed in the first place.
Because here, you could be very tempted to make this guy a douchebag. He's double-timing three different girls. You know, he's doing something that makes him worthy of being murdered. Right. But the character doesn't know that. And making that betrayal so visceral for the character and therefore for the reader, you actually have to make us fall in love with him rather than showing your hand.
27:08.96 Gloria Chao
Yes, exactly. So I actually, I had a lot of beta readers because when I started writing mystery, I realized I can never read this with fresh eyes. I always will know who did it. And that scared me.
27:22.60 Mary Kole
Yeah.
27:23.57 Gloria Chao
And so I got all these beta readers and some of them didn't know the premise when I sent it to them. The book hadn't been announced. And I had one friend, I saw her after she read a little bit of it. And she was like, I'm so mad at you. She was like, I fell in love with Tucker, the guy. And she's like, and then I saw what he did. And I was like, I know, I'm sorry. And she was like, I was shocked. And she was like, I love them. I was shipping them. And that's a really great point that we want to root for the character. And so if he's too much of a jerk when you see them together, you're going to be questioning why is she with him?
28:00.84 Mary Kole
Yeah.
28:00.88 Gloria Chao
You're going to be forming expectations of her based on it because you're also meeting her for the first time. And so I realized that not only for the story do you have to make it that way, but also in real life, that's how it works. It's not like you meet someone and they immediately, you just know, you know, they aren't the villains twirling their mustaches like you see in the cartoons. Right. And I actually read a lot of articles about, you know, cheating and trying to just get in the headspace of the main character, the guy.
And yeah, He does have to be charming. How does he get three women? He has to be charming. There has to be something attractive about him. And so I had to show all sides of him while still making a cohesive character. And so that was a little bit of a challenge, but it was also fun to do in that you're just trying to think about how to make... you know, someone who's very appealing, but then you're just peeling back the layers and realizing, oh, okay, there's actually a lot more here. And it's basically what the characters are doing, right? Because as they realize the cheating, then after they realize he was murdered, they start looking into his life and they slowly realize, uh-oh, everybody in his life had a reason to want him dead.
29:17.55 Mary Kole
That's a pretty big uh-oh. So I'm so, so glad that you chose to say that the character's choices, the character's actions, now this is your main point of view character, who they're with, you know, what they do, what they think about, those all reflect back onto the character, especially as we're getting to know the character.
So if your protagonist is with a douchebag and you haven't done the work to make him appealing, then not only do readers not ship them, they wonder what the heck the main character is thinking in choosing such a partner, right? So ideally, not only your character's choices, but how they exist in the world all reflect back on the protagonist and on fostering or creating distance in the reader-protagonist relationship for a choice that at face value doesn't define the protagonist.
30:25.83 Gloria Chao
Exactly. And there's ways to use it as well, where the characters, all three girls will realize throughout, with the help of each other, really, why they missed certain red flags and what exactly it was about him that attracted them. And they all have their different reasons for why they they felt drawn to him. And it will also help in their character development as well after they realize that and how they kind of move past that. And again, it's with each other's help and support that they grow from it.
30:57.62 Mary Kole
So talk to me, because you said the wonderfully insightful thing about, since it's a mystery, I can never, I get one pass through this thing. I can never read it as a reader would because you know the ending, whodunit, all of that.
So it seems like, though, you have been working on plotting something intricate and you did this also with Ex Marks the Spot, which is the young adult novel that you released in December, which has puzzle mechanic to it. So we've talked about character quite a bit. Talk to me now about plotting.
31:35.69Gloria Chao
Yes. By the way, you said whodunit. That's actually in the name of the series. So my main character is Catherine Hu, H-U. So whodunit, H-U-dunit.
31:46.77 Mary Kole
So again, the titles that do what they say on the box and are so snappy and so memorable, this is publishing gold, right? This is marketing gold. So everybody take notes. Hu-dunit is brilliant.
32:05.30 Gloria Chao
Thank you. It's good if you see it. It's harder when you say it because then you have to explain it, which actually is similar with Ex Marks the Spot because it's spelled E-X. But again, I guess with books, you see it more than you're saying it.
So Ex Marks the Spot is a book about a girl who discovers in her estranged grandfather's will a puzzle. And that puzzle is going to send her on an inheritance hunt through Taiwan. And it's also going to force her to work with her ex, who it turns out there’s a lot of family history there that neither of them know about.
32:46.77 Mary Kole
Oh, interesting.
32:47.98 Gloria Chao
And so this has romance, it has a treasure hunt, it's my love letter to Taiwan, which is where my family's from, and it's also my love letter to puzzles and games and puns. So the puzzle component of it was very intricate where... I was very ambitious when I set out to write this, so I knew I wanted the puzzles and the hunt to relate to each other. I wanted there to be an overall theme. I wanted there are to be messages through the puzzles that the grandfather is telling the main character, Gemma.
So she doesn't know him at all. And he's trying to tell her about his life through these puzzles because it's the only way he knows how to communicate. And then I knew I wanted this puzzle to interact with other parts of the story. So there was a lot I wanted to accomplish. And then obviously the the intricate details of each puzzle had to somehow work with all of that. And so this one took a lot more outlining also because there were so many different parts. So we have the treasure hunt, the romance, and then the way that the character gets to Taiwan is through a summer program.
And so there's this really big, fun cast that they're interacting with, but then there's also scenes with the summer program. And so in some ways, this felt like my most ambitious book where there were just so many moving pieces And before this book, I would say I was, I would plot the big beats in the book, but I really just would kind of have, you know, just pants the rest of it.
If you're not familiar, we have plotting and pantsing, pantsing where you fly by the seat of your pants. And I do love the magical moments you have when you're pantsing, where you come up with something that is really exciting and ties into other things. and it almost feels like magic when that happens.
34:34.46 Mary Kole
It's fresh. You didn't plan it. You made the preconditions for it, but it just popped out of nowhere. It's magic.
34:43.60 Gloria Chao
And for me, I think that's where some of my favorite moments in the books come from is when that comes, you're just inspired, you're so into the story, you come up with something that you wouldn't have thought of just kind of looking at it from a more overhead view. But then with this one, I really had to plot it out. So before I kind of would have the big beats with the character arcs, I always need to know where my character starts and where they're going and kind of that midpoint and what is gonna cause them to change.
35:09.14 Mary Kole
Mm-hmm.
35:10.72 Gloria Chao
For this, I not only needed to know that I had to, I basically outlined all the scenes. I knew exactly where they were going next and exactly what puzzle was going to be where. And in some ways, it made it easier to write once that was done, but it was obviously more difficult getting to that point where I was ready to draft.
35:32.63 Mary Kole
So I'm imagining like The Glass Onion, the literal puzzle box and all of the different—how do you hold all of that in your head? And did you end up bringing maybe an element of plantsing to it, which is a combination of plotting and pantsing, right? Did your best laid plans change over the course of the writing of it?
35:56.28 Gloria Chao
Surprisingly, this one didn't. Right before—I sold this one on proposal, so I had about 100 pages. And before I drafted the rest of it, I took about a week to plan out all the details of of the puzzles. And that actually didn't really change. And then, yeah I really stuck to what I had laid out, which is surprising. But I think for this one, I almost needed to, similar to how a mystery works, where it's just so intricate. If you change one thing, it changes a lot of other things. So I took the time beforehand to make sure things were working before I even attempted to start writing them.
36:28.42 Mary Kole
Mm-hmm. And did you find you were outlining more for the adult mystery?
36:44.41 Gloria Chao
The first one, almost feel like that wrote itself. It just felt so... That was one of those magical books that I don't know if I'll ever have again. And then for the sequel, the mystery was a very different kind of mystery. It was more intricate with more details. And I just finished drafting that now. And that one I had to plot out a little bit differently. And that one did change a little bit more where I think I'm going to have to go back and I'm going to rewrite the ending and rewrite some of the details. So I think it's just very different per book.
37:17.52 Mary Kole
Nobody wants to hear this, I think. So we apologize for being the bearers of bad news. But every book kind of teaches us how to write it. And I have clients, I have writers who come to me and they're like, I want to figure out the formula, right? And there are formulas like the Save the Cat beat sheet and kind of different frameworks and whatever. But no, they want to figure out their personal formula for this is how I write a scene. This is how I write an outline. This is how I write a character arc, right. Unfortunately, it changes from project to project. Sometimes it changes in the middle of a project, but it also changes based on who you are as a writer coming to a specific project at a specific time. So nothing is set in stone.
38:07.59 Gloria Chao
I will say the good news is that there are some books that are easier as well, where it just comes out of you pretty close to how you envisioned it. And so there's good and there's bad, right? Some books are a little bit harder. Some books are a little bit easier. I have personally found that when I'm stuck on something, it usually means there's a problem and I need to fix it before I can move on. And the hardest part for me is giving myself the freedom and patience to do that, where I feel bad if I have a day where I'm just brainstorming and I don't write any words down and I haven't figured out the solution.
But I always tell myself that's part of it. You need that time. Once you figure it out, it will go very quickly. It's just this is part of it. And you have to give yourself that couple days, sometimes even weeks, to figure it out. And I think knowing that helps because the worst part is staring at that screen and thinking I'm not doing anything. But if you realize I am doing something, it does help.
39:11.63 Mary Kole
You and I are very similar in that regard in terms of what's the deliverable? What did you get done? Show me the word count, you know, and we really have to kind of train ourselves that back-brain thinking or heaven forbid, just existing in the world as a creative person is also part of the work. It's not just about the word count on the page, because sometimes we need the space and kind of the grace to figure the problem out a different way.
39:46.67 Gloria Chao
I've also realized that even if you know the solution, sometimes you have to sit with it longer to be ready to execute it too, which I found actually just yesterday where I solved something in the sequel and I was all excited to write it. But when I actually sat down, I was like, I'm just not feeling it right now.
40:02.41 Mary Kole
Mm-hmm.
40:02.40 Gloria Chao
But the good part about this career is that there are so many other things you can do. And so I turned to something else that I have on my plate and that came easily. And so I wasn't wasting that time, but I also gave myself the space that I needed before I can really come back to it and execute it the way that I want to.
40:22.83 Mary Kole
You are getting the freshest insights here on the Thriving Writers Podcast. Just yesterday's brainstorm is now your bumper sticker to run with. I think that's really interesting. So how do you how do you check in with yourself? What to you indicates readiness to tackle something?
40:46.01 Gloria Chao
It took many books to learn my own process, but now there's just a bit of a gut feeling. But really, it's just when you sit down, if things are flowing or not, some days are just better, right? Where once you start writing, you're like, oh, I'm in the zone. I feel it. I'm having great ideas. It's just coming easily. And some days it feels like a slog.
For me, those days are, I know the scene I want to write. I just can't seem to find every word and I'll kind of leave spaces. I'll write a little bit of dialogue. I don't want to write the dialogue tags right now. And I know that's just a harder day for me and I'll just kind of get down what I can, but I won't push myself. And then when it's a good writing day, filling those blanks in is so quick. It just, there's no point in pushing it on a day where I know it will take so much more effort to get it done.
41:33.73 Mary Kole
I think leaving brackets, leaving notes to self, sometimes that is the most humane thing that you can do for yourself instead of, like you were saying, forcing it. So there's an element of kind of self-observation. As you're writing, you float above yourself or whatever. You float inside your own head and you monitor what's going on. And it's perfectly okay. So some writers, they get stuck on, let's say, chapter five and they cannot move forward until they solve whatever problem it is, well, throw some brackets there. Do a little synopsis of what that chapter is going to be and kind of move on. And it sounds like you can hop around based on what you're experiencing, where you are, on a particular day?
42:25.48 Gloria Chao
Actually, only a little bit. I'm a very linear writer. I do not like to move very far forward if it's not, if I have a gap. For me, I write a lot of inside jokes into my books from my readers. I like to call back on things. I like to just use, I mean, everything you write can be used again, right? And you're developing ideas. You should be developing your character and plot in every single scene.
42:47.06 Mary Kole
Mm-hmm.
42:50.91 Gloria Chao
And so I usually will not go too far forward because I worry about, it's probably a bit of a hang up of mine that I should get over, but I just worry about what I'm missing. And I don't want to, I want to have everything fleshed out so that I can get the best next chapter.
43:08.79 Mary Kole
Do you put a lot of pressure on yourself to sort of layer while you're writing so that you don't need to revise as much? I mean, how much of your work is done in drafting and how much in revision?
43:23.84 Gloria Chao
I do a lot of my work in drafting. I like to end with a very clean draft. So I don't like to move on until I've solved things. And just over the course of many books, I've realized that just works better for me. I think it's easier for me to draft a cleaner copy than to have to go back, even a small thing that you're revising, I want to thread it throughout. And so it almost feels like more work to add something in for me than to do it earlier and make sure it's really tied into everything.
I just think my scene comes out better if I went into it knowing I wanted to include something because I feel like making even a small change, I want to change all my dialogue to kind of you know, center around that. And so I tend to take more time in my drafting and really make sure I reread a lot. So usually my front is a lot cleaner than, than the back. But yeah, I've just noticed that that's better for me.
44:21.17 Mary Kole
There are just so many different ways to bake the same cake, if you will. Book isn't obviously going to be the same, but it's just so many people have different processes. There are some people who cannot possibly reread their previous day's work or whatever.
44:39.27 Gloria Chao
I feel like that's the majority, right? Most people talk about getting that bad draft out. And so I think I used to feel pressured to do that. And I used to think, oh, am I doing this wrong? Am I taking too long? But it's just whatever works for you. You know, it's fine as long as you feel good in what you're doing.
44:59.14 Mary Kole
I have had a very busy week of consulting calls and that's not every week for me. So my head is swimming with these—I even had like a social engagement with a client where I left my home and went to a restaurant like a grown up. It was incredible. So my head is full of all of these conversations today. And this is, I think, the implied question that so many writers are asking and that I've had several writers ask me this very week, which is, is this normal?
You know, I feel like it's so funny and not like laughing at you, but it's so funny to me that you felt pressure to do a crappy first draft when that's not your normal. And so I just feel like writers obviously get in their heads. They probably became writers for specific reason. It's a personality type. But I just think it's so funny that you were trying to be more casual about your own process. Whereas some writers are like, I'm doing too many revisions and my draft is too crappy and I feel like I need to be more buttoned up. So you can't win either way.
46:21.70 Gloria Chao
All of this happened at the very beginning and I just felt like I was like, who am I to get to write? I didn't study this. I'm a dentist. And I remember just thinking, you know, I have to learn from other people. And so I really that's why I felt like I would read what everyone else was doing, especially the established authors that I was reading. And I would try their process to see, oh, maybe this is the... I kept thinking there was a right way to write. You know, I was like, I have to figure out how to do this correctly.
And it it wasn't until I was maybe on my third revision of my book that I realized there is no right way. And it's I should just be trying to figure out what works for me. And I think actually a big turning point was I went to one of David Arnold's book events and he was talking about his process and it was similar to what mine is now. I think he writes a cleaner first draft and I remember thinking, oh, wait, that's okay too. And then I realized, wait, I don't have to look like everybody else. And that was kind of when I changed my perspective on it. But for me, a big part of it was just feeling like I didn't know what I was doing. I need to learn from the greats.
47:30.68 Mary Kole
So was there kind of a sense that you needed or wanted permission? You talk about, I'm a dentist, you know, for crying out loud. And dentists need to express themselves too. Dentists are people. But this idea of like, who am I to do this? And who am I to do it in this way? I feel like that's another universal thing that writers struggle with, which is allowing yourself the permission rather than seeking it externally or earning it somehow from some, you know, certifying body somewhere.
48:11.41 Gloria Chao
Yes. And I think, I mean, I, as a kid, I never even thought of author as being a possible job. And so I think that was part of it too, where I was like, who gets to be an author? And yeah, it's not exactly about permission, but more just feeling like you belong, like you are a writer, right? I didn't—I wasn't telling people I was a writer. I felt like I couldn't until I got my first book deal, but that's not how that works either. And just, feeling like was, you're right, it is a little bit about feeling like maybe I wasn't allowed to. And I remember thinking, you know, who would want to read what i have to say? And at the beginning, I was scared to put too much of myself into certain parts of it, and to be too different.
And I remember I even was on a call with my editor about American Panda. And I said, I have this idea. I don't know if it's too weird. Let me know. I would i want to not have a chapter four and I want to not have a chapter 13 because the number four is unlucky in Chinese culture because the word for four sounds like the word for death.
49:16.11 Mary Kole
Death, yeah.
49:17.00 Gloria Chao
And so, you know, a lot of hospitals, they don't have a fourth floor. And so I wanted to cross that out. But then I also wanted to cross out chapter 13 because she's Taiwanese-American. And I just thought that would be a fun way to show her background. And I remember my editor being like, oh, that's so fun. Of course. Why not? Just go ahead. Like, you know, you don't need to ask me about that. And that was a moment where I was like, oh, it's OK for me to do that. And so many people have mentioned that to me after the book came out. They were like, oh, I love that there's no chapter four. And that was also an eye opening moment like yes I should play into these ideas that I have.
It's not about looking like everybody else. In fact that's something good that you should lean into. And so I always try to tell new writers, you know, lean into your weird because that's what's going to stand out. That's what people are going to remember. It's a good thing. It's not something you should be tamping down.
And I especially feel like I did that with Ex Marks the Spot. Because the main character, Gemma, talks about how she feels like a lot of times she's on a different wavelength from other people. So in social situations, she just feels like it takes her an extra second to get on the same page. And she often interprets words and and sayings a little bit differently. And this is something based on on my own experiences. And in the book, that ends up helping her with the puzzles because she looks at things in a different way.
50:36.55 Mary Kole
Mmm.
50:38.88 Gloria Chao
And for me, getting to write Gemma's character was a little bit of a meta moment where I didn't have to tamp that down and I got to use it. And it was it was an advantage. And then also coming up with the puzzles. It was very easy for me to look at these words and especially Chinese characters in a different way. And just because that's how I naturally did it. And so it was the first time that that really felt like it was something, you know, I owned my weird. I owned something that was different about me that was useful.
51:10.65 Mary Kole
I think that is so lovely because I am asked what the trends are in children's books, right? And i think there is a real big difference between the camp of people who are trying to write a, let's say, middle grade or young adult novel or picture book or whatever about a character who realizes their value. Right. And those stories are important. We can all have a little more self-worth. I think that's valuable. But have you met a kid? Kids have a sense of self. They have a sense of spark. They let their freak flag fly, for lack of a better term. And I have been answering that trend question with like, well, what makes you weird? What makes you unique? What can you lean into? This isn't oh, I have worth and value after all, and that's the only thing anybody learns. This is a fully baked human being who has quirks and foibles and flaws and whatever that you could really capitalize. Like, what are your fandoms? What are you into? You say the puzzle making was really interesting for you to dig more into. But it's just like, it's that old quote about, you know, don't ask what the world needs. The world needs people who have come alive, right? It's just, I think, owning your weird and owning parts of yourself and transmitting those goes back to what you were saying earlier, which is we need fiction that reflects everybody's experience.
And you struggle to find comp titles for American Panda because... Let's face it, there were fewer books that represented your demographic or your identity or your cultural heritage or your experience at that time. And so the more specific you can be, the more exacting you can be in terms of character identity, the more of yourself that you can bring to the page. These are all great things in the current climate.
53:29.85 Gloria Chao
And something I learned from American Panda that surprised me but now makes sense is a lot of the reviews that I was seeing from trade reviewers were talking about how it's so specific that it's universal. And at the time that surprised me, but now it makes sense. I was hearing from readers and it was not... you know, just based on cultural things. It was readers of all different ages and backgrounds and identities that were talking to me about different parts that they related to. And again, it does become universal when you talk about the specifics of it, when you really flesh out this character and you try to capture what their experience is like. And people are going to grasp onto different pieces of that.
54:12.96 Mary Kole
So you were the—I think being a little slower to respond to something is such like a beautiful characterizing detail, right? That nobody ever, when you're filling out your character worksheet and it's like, ooh favorite song and favorite color, like none of that stuff matters.
54:31.44 Gloria Chao
And that was something that came out from pantsing, too. I didn't go into it planning that part of her character, but it just made sense with the puzzles that she was looking at these things a little bit differently. And then that ended up being one of the things that really made her feel bonded to her grandfather because she realized he made these puzzles. I must get this quality from him because my mom doesn't get it and she is very different. And for the first time, she kind of realizes like, oh, maybe I have some similarities with him.
55:01.74 Mary Kole
And that is so specific. And regardless of plot, regardless of setting, regardless of anything else, a kid who takes a beat naturally is going to see themselves. And it's that kind of humanity that I think really characterizes a fake person and makes them seem real and relatable and universal, to your point.
55:26.02 Gloria Chao
Yes, and that's a good point because the grandfather never appears on page, but I want you to know him intimately. And a lot of that is done through these puzzles and you don't actually know what he's thinking. And so that was a bit of a challenge, but it was very fun getting to write that. And I also wanted to capture this idea of that coming of age moment where you see your family as humans for the first time, where you have that a lot with most people go through that with their parents, right? You have a moment where you realize like, oh, they're human, they made mistakes, and some of those mistakes might even affect me. Not everyone has that with their grandparents. And so for Gemma, she has this moment where she even questions, do I want to keep going on this journey? And she has always wished for a bigger family. And she realizes I don't get to choose who that is.
56:18.10 Mary Kole
Mm hmm. That's so YA that is just like right there in the heart of YA, coming of age and identity and self-actualization just seeing yourself as the newest entry in long running conversation.
I could talk to you forever. I don't know if it's mutual, but you have just been such an amazing guest and just so insightful and brimming with amazing, amazing takeaways for our listeners.
56:45.75 Gloria Chao
Definitely. Thank you.
56:58.27 Mary Kole
So The Ex-Girlfriend Murder Club comes out in June. Ex Marks the Spot … I'm sensing a theme here.
57:06.94 Gloria Chao
Oh, yeah. Yep. That actually was the funny thing where we were worried is that, okay, we had to check with both both publishers and they were like, oh, it's fine. It's fine. Because they are very different.
57:16.75 Mary Kole
So that came out in December. Anything else that you want to tell people about where to find you, what you're up to?
57:25.04 Gloria Chao
Yeah, please say hi! You can find me on my website at gloriachao.wordpress.com. I'm also on social media @gloriacchao on Instagram and Twitter. And I love to hear from readers, so please reach out.
And one more thing is on my website, there's a little a reader's nook where I have all the resources that I use when I was querying and trying to get published. So feel free to check those out just for, they're they're broken down into categories, into things like word count or queries or manuscript. And so hopefully that that helps you as much as it helped me.
58:01.56 Mary Kole
That is definitely something that I noticed about your website. It is a treasure trove of resources. So you are a champion of the aspiring writer. and that was one of the many reasons I was drawn to you. And now I am obsessed with you. So I'm sorry.
58:17.70 Gloria Chao
Thank you.
58:18.15 Mary Kole
I'm sorry in advance because you can't get rid of me. I'm like the vampire you invite inside.
58:25.57 Gloria Chao
Thank you. That's so nice.
58:27.71 Mary Kole
Gloria Chao, just an absolute pleasure. My name is Mary Kole. This has been the Thriving Writers Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
58:36.63 Gloria Chao
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
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