Episode 48: Niña Mata, Author-Illustrator
Children’s author-illustrator Niña Mata joins the Thriving Writers Podcast to chat about her publishing journey—from illustrating educational materials, working with Olympian athletes, to finally writing her own stories! Listen to hear Niña share some tips on what illustrators gravitate towards in manuscripts and ways writers can make the collaborative process smoother. Plus, get her thoughts on the value of storytelling and what she hopes readers take away from her work.
TRANSCRIPT FOR EPISODE 48: NIÑA MATA, AUTHOR-ILLUSTRATOR
Mary Kole
Welcome, everybody. This is Mary Kole and with me today, I have illustrator extraordinaire Niña Mata. Welcome. If you could please do us the pleasure of introducing yourself.
Niña Mata
Sure. Thank you, Mary, and thank you for having me here. I am very, very honored to be here. My name is Niña Mata, and I am an author-illustrator. I started off as an illustrator, but now I am in my author era.
Mary Kole
That's amazing. I am so sorry to mislabel you because yes, you are now ascending into the ranks of author-illustrator.
Niña Mata
Yes, yes, very excited. This is a milestone moment for me. But yes, I have been an illustrator for, I think I'm celebrating my 15th year? No, yep, 15th year doing this. And since then I've, I think my author-illustrated book is going to be my 30th published book to date. Yeah, pretty exciting. Yeah. And yeah, I just, I've always loved drawing and has always been a path that I was kind of building towards ever since I was a kid. And, you know, like, but you know, when you see, like, when you pull back and you're like, oh, this was always it. This was it. Yeah.
Mary Kole
Yeah. Um, so when did yeah, when did you start drawing?
Niña Mata
Oh, gosh. Uh, I, I don't remember a time where I didn't have a pencil, a chalk or crayon in my hand. Me and my cousin were only like a year apart. She's older than me. And we would always— Grandma would always babysit us. And she always, um she gave us this chalkboard to share, like this drawing thing. And she's like, go to town. And she'd always like cut the chalk, like the the drawing board in half. And always her space was much bigger than mine.
Mary Kole
Rude. Grandma!
Niña Mata
No, no, my cousin. So it started off there because she was really good at drawing. I think my whole family is pretty good at art. And it started off competing with her and wanting to get better than her.
Mary Kole
You know, spite is a very powerful motivator. I am maybe not a good person to say that, but anything that gets fuel in that engine is fine by me.
Niña Mata
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it started from there. And then it became like, I'm an only child. So it became a safe haven for me when I came here from the Philippines. And I didn't know what it meant to be an only child because I'm surrounded by family in the Philippines. But when we moved here, we didn't know anybody. And we lived in this basement and my parents went to work. So I had to stay home and do nothing. And drawing became that space for me to just like be somewhere else.
Mary Kole
So when did you start thinking this could be something that I do like, professionally? When was that pivot?
Niña Mata
I think junior high, when um I realized, you know, like in junior high, you're supposed to pick a high school if you're not automatically put in your zone school. I mean, I had options. I had the Fame School, because I grew up in New York. I had the Fame School, where I could you know pursue performing arts, or the High School of Art and Design, where I could pursue visual arts. And I realized I am very, I have stage fright like no other. So I was like, okay, we're not doing the Fame School. Let's go to the Art School. And I auditioned, I mean, um, they had a test for it to see if I could actually draw and I could, and then I got in and it's been, yeah, that's where, that's where it's, that's where it started.
Mary Kole
That's such a special, well, one of the many, many special things about New York is that you can have kids slot into these, these you know, magnet schools or whatever we would call them elsewhere.
Niña Mata
Yeah, exactly. I was very fortunate to have have grown up here and there's so many museums. One of the things that I really admire about my parents is that um on the weekends, because they worked so much, they were in survival mode when we came here and they would do night school and then also work in the morning and then do night school. But the weekends, the weekends were strictly for family time. And yeah, and a lot of those times we went to the cloisters, we did all the museums. And all the libraries too. And I think my love for both art and books kind of started to weave together there.
Mary Kole
That's so wonderful. I mean, you were saying your whole family is artistically inclined and that they fostered that because that's not the story for a lot of people.
Niña Mata
Yeah, no, I don't think they meant to foster it. It's just that, you know, like sometimes they're just like, oh yeah, you should do, you know, you're very good at art. You should keep drawing. But then when it came to like towards when you get older, I don't know why, but they ask you, they they try to convince you to pursue something else because it's, the arts is a very scary career to try and get into. And that always confused me because once I finished high school my parents are like okay now you did this art thing … why don't you do computer graphics? I was like, that has nothing to do with art.
Mary Kole
Yeah. What a mixed message. Yes, go to this specialized school. Okay, now that's over and we're becoming calm accountants.
Niña Mata
They're like yeah yes now that you got that out of your system why don't you do this? And that always confuses me.
Mary Kole
Spoiler alert, you did not get it out of your system.
Niña Mata
No I did not.
Mary Kole
So we were chatting a little bit before. You told me about some of your early journey, and it sounds like you started with educational materials, maybe institutional publishing a little bit. Tell me how that got started.
Niña Mata
So I started in, well first of all I was a graphic designer for a company like a local—like the we buy gold flyers and clubbing flyers and I did that for like two years thinking that that was going to be it I was just going to be a graphic designer but …
Mary Kole
So you did go to computers, a-ha.
Niña Mata
I was scared too. It is very scary. So I did try to do the safe route and it was painful. It was painful to get up every morning to a job that never gave me anything. You know, like it never so fulfilled me and it was just very frustrating. And so in 2010, I think I had like $300 in my bank account. I was like, okay, that's it. We're just going to quit from here. We're not going to try to save money and then get stuck another year because you're never going to save money. You're just going to do it.
Mary Kole
Not in New York, especially.
Niña Mata
No, exactly. So I told myself I would give myself three to five years to try and do this, like really do it. And so my first step was to get an agent. And that took like a whole year of just cold emailing people and hoping that somebody would reply. And this is like you know pre-social media where you could reach out to illustrators. I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anybody. I didn't know how to start. I didn't know what to send out there. And so luckily, I did get the attention of my current agent right now. And she kind of took me under her wing, and that started the ball rolling. And after a year or two since I quit the graphic design job, I got my first book offer for an educational company.
Mary Kole
Yeah.
Niña Mata
But at the same time, I was also getting married. So I had to do like a side job. I was a receptionist for an ad agency. And that killed me, because I didn't know how grueling it was to to do a picture, like not a picture book, but like an educational book. Because the time limit, I don't know if a lot of people know that, that when you do educational books, they give you half the time that you you really need. For, ah I think it was a 32 page children's book, um like an early reader, they gave me like two months or three months.
Mary Kole
Oof.
Niña Mata
Yeah, it wasn't a lot of time. That's including sketches and coloring altogether. It was really a time crunch. And I said I could do it because I had to.
Mary Kole
Yeah.
Niña Mata
I had to prove myself. And so there were a lot of, and then in the morning I would go to work, like a nine to five. So there would be a lot of late nights and I didn't really put in my hundred percent because I couldn't, because I was exhausted. And that's that's how it started off. It was kind of rocky and I really wasn't sure if I was cut out for it. But then I did get other educational jobs, some editorial work.
Mary Kole
Let me ask you at this very early juncture, you say you didn't know any illustrators, you didn't really know what you were doing. How did you start to learn, I guess the conventions of picture book illustration versus like editorial illustration, right? There are these kind of insider rules that nobody lists out anywhere, but how did you tip in that direction and figure out composition and what was required of you?
Niña Mata
Oh, good question. Um, I think I just faked it till I made it. Um, I really did.
Mary Kole
Perfect.
Niña Mata
I probably did a lot of Googling. It was that time where I felt like, um, people were giving me, like an editorial work with all these jargons and I'm supposed to understand it. And I didn't want to look like, someone who is so inexperienced that I have to ask about sizing and all this stuff. So I kind of just googled it and just kind of hoped for the best. And if they if they had to correct me, then they corrected me and I learned that way. I learned through trial and error, basically, a lot of times, really a lot of times.
Mary Kole
And then you sort of reached a natural limit in the education book market.
Niña Mata
I did. It was the around 2016, and I wasn't getting any jobs. And the jobs that I was getting, they were the same work that I've been doing for the seven years, and there was no growth. I wasn't allowed to the work that I was getting wasn't giving me a challenge anymore. I actually fell asleep a couple of times trying to finish projects. And that's when I knew, I was like, okay, this is not getting me anywhere. And if this is all there is, then I think I need to stop here. Because you know I need to help my family. And this isn't paying the bills at all.
Mary Kole
But you you took a pivot and started evolving your style. So tell me how you came up with your style in the first place and what got into you to change it.
Niña Mata
First of all, I said no. I said no to the the jobs that were coming in, the potentials. And I took that risk, even though um I think I said no to maybe six or seven jobs, um knowing it's the same exact book that I was going to do all the time. So I said no and I was hoping that my my agent would trust me and not like let me go because who says no to jobs? I told her, give me a minute and I kind of want to just refocus on what makes me happy and what brings joy to my life and what kind of art makes me not want to sleep? And also a big thing, I was taking care of a toddler. So time management had to all fit into that. So I had to create art that worked with my schedule. I can't like, I can make art that's absolutely beautiful, but it's going to take me three days. It's not helpful. And it's not gonna get me anywhere. So I needed to find that balance of making art that makes me happy. And also, I'm efficient. And by playing around and giving myself the space to just breathe and just kind of sit down and start over again from scratch, like, not really from scratch, from where I am and and reevaluate what makes me happy and what fulfills me. That really, really helped my might pivot in a big way.
Mary Kole
And was this, so you're obviously listening to yourself. And I think one of the adjectives I would off-handedly ascribe to your work is joyful. There is such movement and such expressiveness to the faces. And it's just, it's a very positive style. You know, not not Pollyanna, not, you know, sugar-coated or anything, but just genuinely positive, which I feel like makes a lot of sense once you step into your purpose and what feeds you and fulfills you on a personal level. By this point, though, were you also more in conversation with the picture book landscape out in publishing other artists? Did you draw from that when you reinvented?
Niña Mata
Um no not really … are you talking about this in terms of community, did I have like an artist community?
Mary Kole
Yeah, did you start paying more attention to picture books specifically, early readers, other illustrators? Maybe you started spreading your tentacles a little bit more.
Niña Mata
Yes, yes, yes. I think it helped that I did have like my daughter was at that age where we were surrounded by children's books. Whether I liked it or not, I had to look and read all kinds of children's books from board books to you know puzzles and a whole bunch of picture books. It's funny because it never really dawned on me that if I want to do a picture book, maybe I should look at a picture book.
Mary Kole
Did you hear that writers? I get a lot of manuscripts where I'm like, you should stop what you're doing. And this is not to disparage any one writer or anything like that. You should stop what you're doing, though, seriously and read 100 picture books. And I think we would be having a very different conversation because it is something you internalize after a while.
Niña Mata
Yes, yes. Yeah, just getting to know the the cadence of how these books work and everything. It just, um I didn't realize that I hadn't really looked at a picture book until I was reading it to my daughter. And that's when I think it all started working out. The pivot just, it happened in that magical moment of just everything just sinking together.
Mary Kole
And then you offered your sort of new style sheet or little portfolio sketches, whatever, to your agent. And your agent was like, oh, we can run with this.
Niña Mata
Mm hmm. Yes. Um, I was actually scared because, I actually, I also wanted to add that when I was looking at picture books, I noticed at that time, that there weren't a lot of kids that looked like my my daughter or my friends. And I wondered why. And I had seen a Norman Rockwell painting *Nina later remembered that the painting was actually Winslow Homer’s “Snap the Whip”* of the kids running through but like that green grassland. And I was wondering, OK, this is probably a nostalgic feeling for him of what America looks like. I think that's what it was, right? I was like, okay, then what's my nostalgic feeling of what my America looks like? And it was me, you know, in Queens, like I grew up going in and out of bodegas buying candy and buying sodas and, you know, after school eating snacks and that's what I drew. I drew something that was personal to me and hopefully relatable and I sent it to my agent and it just it just took my career to another level. Yeah, being honest with myself basically.
Mary Kole
Yeah, I was gonna kind of tie it together in terms of like checking in with yourself, realizing where you had hit walls or were no longer engaged, plugging into the external and just dreaming up, you know on the novel side, you often hear people say, write the book you wanna read, right? And here it's draw the world you wanna see.
Niña Mata
It sounds very obvious when you pan back and you look back at life, but those little moments were just aha moments for me. I was just like, oh, I should be drawing about what I know. Why not? Why am I drawing kids with red hair when I myself don't have red hair?
Mary Kole
Hey, I have two redheaded boys, my friend.
Niña Mata
Right, no, but then you would draw it and I was always I always was fascinated with red hair. So all my characters before this change had red hair. It's so funny.
Mary Kole
That's so funny. Well, clearly, I'm a natural blonde, so I don't know where it came from. No, I'm just... So you you got a response. You kind of stepped into your intentionality, you stepped into your purpose, and the world was like, hey, where have you been?
Niña Mata
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I feel like that's exactly what happened. Two months or three months after sending out that postcard, I sent it out myself and then my agent sent it out to publishers. Two months later, I get an email saying from Harper saying that, um, an Olympian wants you, only you, to illustrate her book because of that postcard. She saw herself in that postcard. She saw her brothers and and her sister in that postcard. It tugged on her heartstrings. And that's exactly what I wanted that to happen. I wanted it to happen that way. And in that first picture book, She's Got This by Laurie Hernandez, that was it. That was my first picture book officially. And it hit the New York Times Bestseller the next year. It just, boom.
Mary Kole
Well, I mean, years and years and years of work and passion went into that boom, but. And then it was off to the races with picture books, but you also do early readers.
Niña Mata
Yes, um I think a year after doing that book with Laurie, Kelly Starling Lyons had an idea of doing an early reader with Ty. And again, it was all, it feels all kismet because my daughter was in that imaginative stage. And um a lot of people don't know I had to test for this. So there were a couple of people in line to be the artist for Ty. And they all wanted to see what our version of imagination looks like because Ty lives in a very imaginative world. And that was our that was our test.
Like, how does Ty's world look to you? And again, I looked at my daughter and I would watch her draw. And she would put herself in this life on paper using crayons. And that was it. It was very simple. It's like, that's what kids do. You just draw with crayon and you live there. And, and it worked. That's exactly what they wanted to see. And I think we are eight books in now of Ty's Travels. Yeah.
Mary Kole
It's so funny because I think there is such a challenge to, and I'm coming from kind of the writing perspective, the manuscript perspective, right? There's such a challenge to how you render these imagined scenes or like a flashback scene because a lot of people have this idea in their heads that it's just thought bubbles and then you draw whatever they're thinking about in the thought bubble. But you have to find a way to make that come alive a little bit more for the current market.
Niña Mata
Yeah, I think with illustrators, I mean that's that's our job, the visual narrative of it. I hope that people, when people look at my work, that I'm adding to the story rather than just drawing what is being written. And that to me is what makes a standout illustrator, is that you're adding to the story versus just you know putting pictures to whatever is happening.
Mary Kole
Replicating the story.
Niña Mata
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Mary Kole
This is such a key takeaway for a lot of aspiring writers, which is you are in a collaboration, you're in a partnership, the illustrator is bringing, even though a writer usually originates the story, the character, the plot, whatever, the illustrator's contribution has the power to elevate that story into something else, like a beautiful alchemy, a combination of talents.
When you're evaluating a manuscript and you know your agent says, oh, I have this that potential project for you, what does a writer do well where you can really sense yourself slipping into it and your imagination starts firing, you have room to play? What do those writers do that some other writers might not?
Niña Mata
Oh I love that question. I don't know, you know authors you guys have such a magical way of putting words together that that's what sticks out to me. The your play on words, the way you are you collage these words that like separately, they don't mean anything, but then together that the way you create is so artistic and so creative. When words jump out of pages to me, that's when I know that this is a yes, that this is a yes for a manuscript. I think it's better if I answer what doesn't work for me is the art notes, honestly.
Mary Kole
Yeah, perfect. This is a very controversial topic. Please, please go off on this.
Niña Mata
It's the art notes. I feel like when I, the more I see, if I see a manuscript with a lot of art notes, it's already giving me that you don't trust the illustrator to create vibes. And it's scary to say yes, because there's, you know, you can tell that there is, that that's their baby and they want full control of what happens to the book from finish to end, and it's no longer collaborative. Those are the things that kind of make me pull away from from manuscripts.
Mary Kole
Yeah, writers don't like to hear that, but um picture books are inherently collaborative, right? If you want full control, you self-publish, you hire an illustrator. It's a work for a hire. You can tell them what to do until you're blue in the face or they quit because you're micromanaging them. I mean, that that's the only route to total control in the picture book world. But I do think that illustration notes have a degree of egregiosity, if you will.
Niña Mata
Ooh. Lovely word.
Mary Kole
Thank you. So for example, if it's like, you know, Scarlett has a shoulder length bob, brown hair, a blue bow in her hair, right. It's obviously your child or grandchild that you're describing there. And, you know, that is just, I would say that kind of stuff is the most egregious. However, I do often counsel writers that illustration notes have a place only if there's something going on intended story-wise that's necessary for the visuals to convey, which is not clear from the text itself.
Niña Mata
Yes. Right, right. Yeah, no, I agree. I think, some art notes are helpful, but the ones that you said, the the ones that describe somebody to the T and just like, mmm …
Mary Kole
Yeah, or it's like the dialogue is, let's go play hockey. llo note: they run to the ice rink. It's like we can string A and B together.
Niña Mata
Exactly yeah and it's very hindering like it always makes me feel stuck on the suggestion because I'm honestly a people pleaser and it's a bad habit of mine. So the minute I read something that's suggestive or that the illustrator—I mean the author has suggested … that's it I can't move away from that. I need the space to think and I can't see art notes. And then a lot of times the publishers are are kind enough to remove them if they don't think it's necessary. Yeah, a little note there, a little secret.
Mary Kole
That's a really, really valuable insight though. So to make a parallel to editorial feedback, when I give notes, I say I avoid being extremely prescriptive because the problem or the issue, the opportunity for growth, whatever is for the author to solve, right? And so I think bad notes are do this. And it's interesting to me that there's a parallel to a bad illustration note, just kind of sticks that idea in your head, it might not be the best idea, because they're not an illustrator. But you kind of you have trouble moving on and feeling free to be yourself and bring yourself to the project. But that's what you're there for.
Niña Mata
Right. Yeah. And the more, usually when that happens, I feel like it doesn't elevate the work anymore. It's literally just doing what I'm told. And those are the jobs that I stayed away from. Those are the jobs I said no to a lot of times.
Mary Kole
Yeah. Well, it almost is reminiscent of your early work with the educational market where it's probably like kids with test tubes, kids playing sports.
Niña Mata
It was literally like that. And I think it still is. I don't know why. I have a lot of colleagues that are still in the educational game and they're like, I don't understand why they want this specific person to have blonde curly hair. What is the rationality? Why can't it just be whatever I draw? And it's still happening. Yeah, I'm very curious as to why. No one ever answered. No one ever gave me that answer.
Mary Kole
They probably have a list somewhere. They're just you know, it's like the punch list of of graphics that they need. So you are pivoting again to the author-illustrator title, right? You're now hyphenate. How did that come around?
Niña Mata
I think it was inevitable that it was always gonna evolve to eventually me telling the story. I've been blessed to read and have collaborated with so many talented authors that it was just inevitable that I would just end up getting hit by the author bug. And we are all you know, inherently just storytellers in general, right? Every one of us, every one of us has a story. And that's what we do. In any field, actually, you're a scientist, you're telling a story in science, you're a mathematician, you tell that story with math. And that that's just how humans are, we're just natural storytellers. And this was, um a long time coming.
It actually started with this particular book that's coming out this month, Girls to the Front, my anthology, my middle grade anthology, started off as an Instagram post. And it was a 30-day challenge on highlighting 30 Asian-American women. And it was a challenge because I honestly didn't know if I could name 30 Asian-American women who are doing things out there. Because no one ever really sheds light on that. And I was wrong. There are a lot of women out there. And my one of my good friends slash editor was like, hey, let's turn this into a—this is something. Let's turn this into a book. And I was like, oh, okay. And that was it.
Mary Kole
How did you decide—so I would say a lot of your catalog, if you will, has, I said earlier, you know, this joyful vibe to it, but also a connecting thread, and correct me if I'm wrong, is sort of showcasing all kinds of kids doing all sorts of things, empowering kids, individuality, all of these like very positive, uplifting projects that you've taken on. How did you choose middle grade, which you haven't had as much experience in for the vehicle for this? Because, you know, 40, it's 30 or 40? The book is 40. So that would have been a long picture book, but could have could have been nested as a picture book. It would have accommodated that. Why did you go older?
Niña Mata
I think it's because there are the some of the topics are a little bit older as well, like the Chinese Exclusion Act. That is something that I think middle graders would be more inclined to learn about. And a lot of them are, yeah, a lot of the women are more, their stories are more of something that a middle grader would probably read versus kids, I mean I'm sure I'm sure they would understand it too but some of them are very heavy.
Mary Kole
I mean, I'm definitely thinking of like Love in the Library by Maggie Tokuda-Hall, which tackles the the heavy topic of the Japanese internment camps. But to your point, yeah, if everybody has adversity that they've overcome or people have different events in their life story that maybe were the crucible that shaped who they became in the world, hitting a six-year-old with 40 of those is probably a tall order.
Niña Mata
Yes, exactly.
Mary Kole
So was writing a challenge and or do you feel like you've absorbed enough via osmosis to be able to do it?
Niña Mata
I think the fact that it was nonfiction was helpful what because you know I am just starting out as an author. But I love research. I have always loved a good research. I love deep diving into people's personal, I mean like their lives and learning more about these women. And yeah, that made it a lot easier. And the internet made it a lot easier.
Mary Kole
But you're a library lover, you’ve paid your dues there.
Niña Mata
Yes, yes. Yes, no, yes. I lived in libraries. I still do. I still live in libraries, yeah.
Mary Kole
Just completely random thought popped into my head, and I think that the concepting of this project is so brilliant. Did you approach any of your subjects for blurbs? I mean, did you interface with any of these powerful women?
Niña Mata
I did. I have maybe like two or three. Ny Sou Okon, she is the NASA engineer that that created the head of the Perseverance that went to Mars. So she's in the book and the first time we ever interacted, she said she was on Mars time. So she couldn't talk to me all that much.
Mary Kole
That's amazing.
Niña Mata
I was like, what? Never met anyone on Mars time. That's amazing. And um so we actually talk a fair amount. We built a little friendship after this book.
Mary Kole
Oh, that's really cool.
Niña Mata
Yeah. And I'm hoping to see her at the book launch. So fingers crossed.
Mary Kole
That's really awesome. I mean, in publishing, everyone is about two years ahead. So it's probably 2028 in publishing time. But I have never heard of anyone on Mars time.
Niña Mata
I know, it’s amazing!
Mary Kole
Is this a challenge you would like to repeat? Is there other stuff that you maybe want to do either in writing or for this kind of older audience?
Niña Mata
I do. I am in the middle of writing or attempting to write a middle grade fantasy book about Bakunawa, which is a mythical creature in Philippine folktales. And yeah, it's a struggle just to to find the time to sit down and really be disciplined and write. I think that's the hardest thing for me to do. It's just to sit and write and not edit myself. Constantly, I have to stop editing myself.
Mary Kole
You got the bug bad. Going from nonfiction kind of little article based text to a middle grade fantasy novel.
Niña Mata
Yes, definitely. Help me.
Mary Kole
So to your point, you have spoken a lot during our time together about this balance, right? You were falling asleep on sketches after doing your nine to five. You had a young child. How do you juggle it? And is there maybe this disconnect between, oh, you know, I could be doing my paid contracted work or I could be over here with my little side project.
Niña Mata
I think over the years I've gotten really good at knowing, prioritizing, basically. So, for example, I had a project that I'm doing right now that actually is is paying me to work. I got that done first. And I can gauge how much time I would need for it so that I can then look at my schedule and say, okay, well, then I can fit in all my other pursuits in this chunk of time after I finished this. I've been doing that successfully for the past, I'd like to say two years. Before that I couldn't, I couldn't juggle anything—
Mary Kole
Just hair on fire.
Niña Mata
And it was just like, I think it's just experience at this point. It's just trying, like knowing how much work something is going to be. Yeah.
Mary Kole
And are you thinking you might illustrate? Are we going to have gorgeous interstitials between chapters?
Niña Mata
I hope so. I want it to be exactly like a classic like middle grade fiction.
Mary Kole
So let's go back to this editing yourself. Take me through a writing session. Do you start where you left off? Do you read through what you wrote your last session and then hate yourself afterward and get stuck?
Niña Mata
That is, yeah, spot on, spot on. I will just open my laptop to where I last left off and I'm like, okay, well, none of this sends me anymore.
Mary Kole
Or it sends you, but in a bad way.
Niña Mata
Exactly. And then I have to start over. I think there was one point where I started chapter one, like for three months and I'm like, what am I doing? This is really, this is not getting me anywhere. And I really just had to look at the last sentence I wrote and just keep going. That's what I've been doing, but it's so cringy. It's like, okay, but just keep going.
Mary Kole
Yes, you have struck upon some essential wisdom the hard way it sounds like. But chapter ones are so tough for everyone. You're going to go back and hammer on that thing so many more times.
45:02.74
Niña Mata
Really? Oh wow.
Mary Kole
Well, when you get to the end, you will have learned so much from telling yourself the story that you chapter one will be, oh, you're like, but wait a minute, I need to seed in you know this character development or whatever. And it almost doesn't matter, which is so funny to say to something that feels like it matters so much.
Niña Mata
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I have a feeling that's what's going to happen because, I'm so stuck on like how many words a middle grade is supposed to be. And I'm looking at how much I've written. I was like, this is way more than, and I'm only in chapter five. How, how is this gonna, how’s this it's gonna end? But then I tell myself, the more you write, the more you know about this world, and then you can just cut, it's easier to cut than it is to add on, right?
Mary Kole
Oh, absolutely. Especially in fantasy, you are going to decide or discover what the true kind of core of the world-building is. And then, you know, maybe you don't need this beautiful description that is cool, but maybe doesn't fit into something that happens later in the plot. I would almost always rather have somebody overwrite rather than underwrite, especially in fantasy where the word counts can be a little bit longer.
Niña Mata
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm starting to learn that that's how I should keep going. Yeah.
Mary Kole
But I love that just read the last sentence, figure out where you're pointing your arrow, and then don't look back.
Niña Mata
Yup. And I have like notes at the very top of each chapter, just saying it over again you know like what the goal is just get to that goal and however you get to that goal, how many words just get to that one goal and make it exciting, that's it.
Mary Kole
Amazing. So you are cooking on the writing front. And in terms of illustration, are you established in sort of your visual style, your calling card? Do you feel another evolution on the horizon? Who are you as an artist at this point?
Niña Mata
Yeah I feel it. I’ve felt it for a while that my style is currently in the middle of shifting. I don't know where, I don't know how or when but I feel it because I think you just know every time I look at my art, I’m like I think this can be pushed a little bit further. I just don't know when that inspiration is going to strike. But it's bubbling, for sure.
Mary Kole
What to you is pushing it further? What does that mean?
Niña Mata
The level of joy that something gives me can always be pushed a little further. And it's not for anybody else, it's just for myself. And just like, what are—what is something that I can add here that I can look at this page and just go, “Good job.”
Mary Kole
I love that. I was expecting you to say like, well, you know, I really want to work on body language and like emotional expression.
Niña Mata
There's nothing really particular. It's just scenes, like pulling out emotions from scenes. That's what I love doing with people so if I meet a mom and and their kid and they're like, oh, this spoke to me. I cried when I saw this. That's my job well done for myself. When I pull out, when I evoke emotions just with art, that's it.
Mary Kole
Well, you were just saying about science and math. These are all mechanisms for making meaning, right? And what is the deepest meaning for humans is the experience, the emotional life that we get to have. And you are transmitting that through illustrations and now words, but primarily so far illustrations.
Niña Mata
Yes, I think that's my first language, honestly. The world of art is my primary language. It's really hard for me to to convey my messages with words. My vocabulary, my bank is not as deep and deft as I want it to be. And that's okay. Not everybody needs to be, not everybody needs to carry all those words. For me, it's the art. And I know how to speak in that language very well, I think.
Mary Kole
You're a beautiful genius. Thank you so much for coming on. Niña Mata is our guest today. Please check out Girls to the Front, the author-illustrator debut.
Niña Mata
Yay!
Mary Kole
And check out any of her other 87,000 published works that are beautifying shelves all over the place.
Niña Mata
Thank you for that.
Mary Kole
Of course, you have been a delight and I have loved, I am not—so my mother is actually a fine art painter. It should be baked into this cookie, maybe, but it is not.
Niña Mata
Same thing with my daughter. My daughter is the same way.
Mary Kole
She’s drawing? She’s drawing with crayons! She's probably drawing better than I can.
Niña Mata
Yeah. Well, people put a lot of pressure on her because her mommy is an illustrator. And I often tell people, hey, stop that because she is her own person. Let her do her own thing. She doesn't have to follow in anybody's footsteps. It's a lot of pressure.
Mary Kole
I would tour with my mom to various gallery shows and stuff. And the number one question far away. Oh, are you an artist too?
Niña Mata
Mm-hmm.
Mary Kole
No, no ma'am. No, sir. Not for me, but I use words and you use pictures. And I think that's lovely that you kind of nip it in the bud when somebody tries to come after your daughter and put pressure on her. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation. So insightful, such a point of view that I can inhabit that I almost never get to inhabit. And it's just so amazing to see how you see the world.
Niña Mata
Oh thank you so much you've been such a pleasure and I'm usually very nervous but this was so lovely and just a very calming space to be in.
Mary Kole
Oh, I'm so glad. Well, everybody check out Niña Mata and thank you for coming on. Thank you for listening out there and here's to a good story.
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